Mending Lives

Jane_Houng: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Jane Hong, and this is Mending Lives, where I'm talking with people from a patchwork of places. Some have had their lives ripped apart by loss, some are in the business of repairing others brokenness, but we're all seeking to make this world more beautiful.

Neville Sarony has had a distinguished legal career as a barrister in the UK, Hong Kong and Nepal, where he was the first practicing foreign lawyer in the country's history. He arrived in Hong Kong the same year I did, 1985, and has since been appointed a King's Council and Senior Council, being instructed by the Court of Appeal, the Court of Final Appeal and the Privy Council. Neville was educated in the UK, then commissioned to the 7th Gurkha Rifles to serve in Malaysia. Returning to the UK, his legal practice was a mixture of professional negligence, crime and common [00:01:00] law. He appeared regularly at the Old Bailey and the Court of Criminal Appeal. Between 1986 and 1998, Neville was also chairman of a group of travel companies in Kathmandu. While in Hong Kong, Neville started writing his memoir, called Council in the Clouds, A Personal Odyssey, which covers his life in Nepal. And since then, he's published a trilogy of lively novels in the Max Devlin series, called The Dharma Expedient, Devlin Chakra, and The Chakrata Incident. Currently, he's working on part two of his memoir. Neville now lives between Hong Kong and Spain. I can't finish this without mentioning his keyboard skills. He plays jazz piano and still participates in professional gigs. [00:02:00]

I'm here in Nepal as part of the New York Writers Workshop as well as the first Himalayan Literary Festival and I found the distinguished name of Neville Sarony on the list of participants. Hello Neville, how are you feeling?

Neville Sarony: It's lovely to be in Nepal and it's nice to be seeing you and having a chance to chat again.

Jane_Houng: When were you last here actually?

Neville Sarony: Sadly, only and then along came COVID and all plans were wrecked. And so in a sense, we've been recovering since that. So this was actually the first opportunity to get back up here.

Jane_Houng: And a big question here. But when you come back how does the experience differ to the time in the 60s when you were [00:03:00] here?

Neville Sarony: Obviously everywhere is physically different. It's quite difficult to actually spot some of the places, but I think that the essence of Kathmandu is still pretty unchanged. When you talk to people, the things that really make Kathmandu what it is, it obviously is the people, it's the sum total of their contribution. And you fall back into I do, I fall back into it. with remarkable ease.

Jane_Houng: And you speak Nepalese, right? And it still works in this modern society? Language is always developing and changing.

Neville Sarony: Yeah, because my language is very familial. I was married to a Nepali and so I would spend time with her family. And that's probably the best way to, to learn a language because it becomes pretty natural. And so for me, It's my second [00:04:00] language.

Jane_Houng: I should explain to listeners that if you hear occasional tapping sounds, it's because, yes, things are developing right next door, but this is the quietest place we could find for this afternoon. Neville, you were here in the 60s, what years exactly?

Neville Sarony: I started in 65. We stayed here for three years, and before I went back to the UK.

Jane_Houng: All right. And prior to that, you'd been in Malaya. Yeah.

Neville Sarony: Yeah, I was in Malaya from 1958 to 1960, then I read Law at LSE until 1963, then I did two years foreign service, didn't like that and I was married in 63, so we used to go to the Nepalese embassy in London, and we kept meeting people who said, Oh, you should come to Nepal, you really, you can help us.

And so eventually in 1965, we came out on a recce. And we decided, yeah, [00:05:00] we can make this work. And so we closed up in London, and we came and settled in Kathmandu.

Jane_Houng: I see. So you met, you didn't meet your wife in Nepal.

Neville Sarony: No.

Jane_Houng: You met her. No. Was it through your interest in the Gurkhas? Because I know you were in the military for a while.

Neville Sarony: Yeah, it was, it was. The Queen was presenting a new pipe banner to the 6th Gurkhas. I was 7th Gurkhas, but all Gurkha officers were invited to this presentation ceremony. And amongst those who was also invited were Two girls, two Nepalese girls, who were studying medicine at St. Thomas Hospital. Actually, they were nursing, so I was much taken with one of them, and eventually we got married.

Jane_Houng: I see, so 63, and then you came here in 65.

Neville Sarony: Yes.

Jane_Houng: And spent two years here? Three years?

Neville Sarony: Three.

Jane_Houng: Three whole years?

Neville Sarony: Yes.

Jane_Houng: And, as we walked here, you were saying that you used to have the most beautiful house in Kathmandu here, which was designed with an architect [00:06:00] friend. Is it still standing?

Neville Sarony: Yes. Over the years, I've stayed in different places. I like this place village park village, but it's it's a little bit remote when I want to do things within the city.

Jane_Houng: In town, yes.

Neville Sarony: So my favorite place in town is a place called Baba Mahal Revisited, which is part of an old Rana palace, which has been converted into a boutique hotel. It's beautifully done. I know the family. So

Jane_Houng: Oh lovely.

Neville Sarony: It's always coming home.

Jane_Houng: It feels like coming home even now 50 years later 50 years, isn't it? This is my third trip. Actually. The first time I came out was in the 90s and it was much smaller and less noisy let's say if you were motorbikes and cars then I came in about 2005 and I had a remarkable trip that time because on the plane [00:07:00] were a couple they were engaged and he was a brahmin and her she was related to the family who had actually sacrificed their daughter to be the royal goddess of Kumari.

Neville Sarony: Oh, the Kumari.

Jane_Houng: Yes. My husband and I had the most perfect hosts. We went into we didn't see the goddess. We just saw from afar because she comes out an hour a day, doesn't she? But it was fascinating to hear that story of the process of that young girl becoming a goddess. And then often what happened to her when she was pushed out because she'd lost blood in some way or another. And then the rest of the time they showed us around. I've got the most, I had the most favorable impression of Nepal. And I resonated when you said that you feel that the core values of, of the people are still here. I've spent this morning going to Kathmandu international school. First there were about 200 students and they're [00:08:00] all secondary students. And the general enthusiasm and joy and, they were so welcoming and it wasn't fake. That's the thing. And the teachers, and, we had to talk about being a writer and a life of creativity. And then we had a workshop. And I was talking about podcasting actually, because interestingly, the school has set up a studio for students. And I looking around the school, I could see all the mottos, peace, harmony, spirituality national pride. And. It just glowed from I would say all the students faces There weren't even a couple of naughty boys at the back who yawning or not listening They were so attentive and so appreciative and their standard of english was very high. Why do Nepalese children learn English here?

Neville Sarony: Funnily enough? My experience is that Nepalese are quite good [00:09:00] linguists. They, most of them, outside the valley, even in the valley, grow up with one language, then they have to learn the lingua franca of Nepal. And if, as is the case with many of them, they come from one of the communities and, Nepal is a combination of many different ethnic groups, each with their own language. And those languages sometimes break down into as many as 15 different dialects.

Jane_Houng: Goodness me.

Neville Sarony: And there's a great deal of adaptation that's required. And they seem to do that pretty well. And I think also, there is a natural desire to learn, which means all right. What are they going to learn which will advance them most? The short answer is the international lingua franca of English. So I think that's probably these are the driving forces

Jane_Houng: We [00:10:00] talked about that incident in a cave in thailand I talked about it because during the course of the conversation I had in the Breakout session. I mentioned the word trauma and their faces were Absolutely blank. It's what's that mental health? The issues that, that so often talked about, let's say in the UK and secondary schools, and certainly in Hong Kong, because of the effects of COVID and those, many students been not allowed to go to school for a couple of years and stuck at home in these minute flats. Again, their faces were blank. So I told them the story about how, In Thailand, how interested I was as a Westerner, that those, I think there were about 20 school children. They got stuck in a cave. Do you remember that? And it would look like football team. That's right. And it was touch and go. It really was. But in the end, this is what interested me, Neville, is that they miraculously, all of them got out. And the first thing they did is go to the [00:11:00] temple. And they spent about a month there. And now, apparently, they're all fine. So when I told this story to the students, they were nodding. They're saying, yeah, the values are very different here.

Neville Sarony: They are very different. The whole issue of mental health is a cultural cul de sac really because really from I suppose time immemorial any form of mental health was regarded as people being inhabited with demons and so it's not something that you admit to

Jane_Houng: The shame.

Neville Sarony: So therefore people will conceal anything which may suggest that they have anything wrong with them mentally. Now that's a huge barrier to overcome if you, you want to mend damaged minds. And I think it's going to take more generations before there is a more general [00:12:00] acceptance of the fact that people do suffer. From an injury, which may not be palpable in the same way a broken leg or a scar is, but is none, nonetheless real and requires proper medical attention.

Jane_Houng: There's no doubt that there's a certain kind of physiological conditions where there's some chemical imbalance in your brain, but it seems that a lot of people now are finding modern life very stressful, post COVID and all these apolitical things going on in terms of climate change and jobs and artificial intelligence. I wonder how much looking back, your, the discipline of being in the army and that emphasis on physical fitness and resilience. How much has that impacted you on, in the course of your long distinguished life to cope with life's knocks and bruises?

Neville Sarony: I think it's all a learning curve and I [00:13:00] formed a view quite early on, I wouldn't be able to tell you when it was, but I formed the view that life was a series of being knocked down and getting up again, or at least having to start all over again. Every time you did something and you achieved it, and you thought, ah, I've moved on, and then you found, no you haven't, you've got to start all over again. It was a series of achieving, and then finding no. You've only just begun. Now you've got to go and move on. So you're always starting again.

Jane_Houng: Maybe this is a good moment to ask you, and where are you actually based now? Are you, do you still spend some time in Hong Kong or have you retired fully to Spain?

Neville Sarony: No, I'm still working in Hong Kong, but I take every reasonable opportunity to get back to Spain.

Jane_Houng: That makes sense. We're not going to cover the the situation, a very bland word, in Hong Kong in present times. I sincerely hope that you, in your dedication [00:14:00] to the rule of law and public law, I won't say the D word, that you don't feel too disappointed and that you are reconciled to the fact that, let's face it, your voice has probably been silenced. I remember your, such a lively blog. I loved your blog, Neville. As soon as I saw it in my inbox, I read it.

Neville Sarony: Yeah, I have cut back because there's no point sticking your neck out and yet, I still think that it is very important when something needs to be said that it should be articulated. But you've got to choose how you do that with more care.

Jane_Houng: You've practiced in England and Wales initially, and I suppose now you would say the UK. One thing I observed that this then you went to Malaya, that was not, was that as a lawyer? Yes, it was.

Neville Sarony: No, Malaya was in the army.

Jane_Houng: Oh, sorry. Yes, of course it was. [00:15:00] But you were called to the bar in 1985 in Hong Kong, and that's the year I went, Philip and I went out. So that's when we met. Must have first met.

Neville Sarony: I think we probably met at my chambermates gosh, Rodney Pritchard.

Jane_Houng: Oh yes, I remember Rodney very well. He was so hospitable. Him and his wife

Neville Sarony: Dorothy.

Jane_Houng: Dorothy. Yes. Okay, yes, he often had dinner parties, didn't he, and buffets, and yes, because I feel like

Neville Sarony: Lengthy lunches.

Jane_Houng: Were there any pianos there?

Neville Sarony: Yes, there was a piano there.

Jane_Houng: Because one thing we must talk about during the course of this is your tremendous skill at playing the piano, singing, composing.

Neville Sarony: It's all therapeutic.

Jane_Houng: Therapeutic. Do you still play?

Neville Sarony: Oh, yes.

Jane_Houng: I hope there's a piano here, especially at the Himalayan Literary Festival, so maybe you can you can break up your session by ha entertaining the crowd. What are you doing at the Himalayan Literary Festival?

Neville Sarony: I'm reading, [00:16:00] I think on at least one occasion, and taking part in a panel on another.

Jane_Houng: I know that more recently you've been writing novels and most of them are set in Nepal, is that right?

Neville Sarony: Yes, they've all got a very strong Nepal connection, yeah. And the first one, most of it is in Nepal.

Jane_Houng: And have you ever asked yourself why did you choose in set your creativity, your novel writing to Nepal?

Neville Sarony: I've never actually asked myself that question. I think the way it evolved was that I had an idea and the idea probably sprung from the fact that this is an area in which I have a lot of knowledge, a lot of personal experience and I think it's much better easier for you to write if you've got a wealth of experience to draw upon.

Jane_Houug: And what a special time it must have been to be the first foreign lawyer in Nepal. Tell us a little bit about that, please.

Neville Sarony: [00:17:00] It was exciting. When I came out, I was expecting to be given a post at the university to teach international law, but in the interim between our reconnaissance trip and coming here to settle, the vice chancellor was changed. They shifted the one that I had discussed it with. He'd been moved to Beijing because I think that he was regarded as a political walnut or something. So when I came back, there was a new vice chancellor who knew absolutely nothing about the plan for this new faculty. And my job.

Jane_Houng: And you were already here. With your wife in tow.

Neville Sarony: I had been told you would be able to run your own practice as well as teach. So I thought might as well get on with the practice. And so I spent time building up the practice. And I thought, it's quite important not to get up the noses of the Nepalese advocates. So I thought I [00:18:00] wouldn't work in the field that most of them worked in, which was crime and land law property. But in those days, Nepal was just emerging. It had relatively recently passed a Companies Act and an Industries Act. And Most Nepali lawyers who had been trained in India were not really troubling with it. So I thought , this is an area I can concentrate on and it will enable me to work with particularly foreigners coming in. I can match them up with Nepalis who want to deal with foreigners coming in. And actually that's what worked most. I was protecting Nepalis from avaricious foreigners, particularly Indians.

Jane_Houng: Oh not vice versa, or maybe both, because I immediately think of those sort of Hong Kong compradors, the, yes.

Neville Sarony: So I built the practice very largely on, on corporate work. And then I drafted [00:19:00] their first Articles and memorandum of association, which they could simply bolt on to any company because they didn't have one. So I did that, translated that into Nepali. So we had got English and Nepali and then sat there waiting for someone to knock on the door.

Jane_Houng: And they did.

Neville Sarony: And they did. Yeah. And I think the first day was marvelous. Because I actually had three clients all on the first day. They were queuing up, were they? They were all friends. But they came in one after the other. Maybe they had spoken to each other.

Jane_Houng: The first day, so yes. Okay, that must have been very comforting after the, I mean.

Neville Sarony: It was very reassuring.

Jane_Houng: Reassuring, yes. That you could make a living here.

Neville Sarony: Yeah.

Jane_Houng: Yes. So why did you leave in 1968, actually?

Neville Sarony: By that time, we'd actually advanced quite a lot. But, there were people with quite adventurous plans, and yet There [00:20:00] was very little in the way of financing available in Nepal. The banks charters were so limited as to what they could lend that they couldn't cover the investment costs of any substantial industry. So there was, the project which really brought this to mind was Nepal Paper Mills. Now that was a sound project. They only aimed to produce 20 percent of Nepal's paper. Nepal's needs in paper. And so it was a guaranteed industry. So they ated the machinery from Japan. They went to the banks and the banks said sorry, we can't lend you. It's over our charter. And the guy who was then spearheading it was PBA and PKA came to me and he said, oh. They won't lend. I said, would you like me to handle it? No, I'll handle it. I thought okay. You're going to handle it and I'm not going to help you. You want to come meet and pay my fees. I'll sort it out for you. Eventually [00:21:00] I think it was pushed through, but then they said, ah now we want a Nepal shipping line.

Jane_Houng: Oh, wait a minute. Isn't it a landlocked country?

Neville Sarony: Yes, exactly. And there were various members of the royal family involved and we can't get past shipping line. We're going to buy a ship. Stop right there. You do not need to buy a ship, right? You can charter. Oh, but I said, but you guys haven't paid my fees for this. Oh, we will pay. The time has come to fold my tent. So I thought, okay. And I really had a year to go back to the English bar.

Jane_Houng: Okay.

Neville Sarony: So I thought, okay, I've exhausted the potential in Nepal. Now I'll go back to the UK.

Jane_Houng: And then what happened then? You went back?

Neville Sarony: So I went back, then I built up my practice in London and, various parts of England. But the link with Nepal was so very strong.

Jane_Houng: Because of your wife, apart from anything else.

Neville Sarony: And a lot of these people had become very good friends.

Jane_Houng: Okay.

Neville Sarony: And so I [00:22:00] would come, we would come back once or twice a year. And so we continued to help and be involved in projects. And so it was an ongoing project.

Jane_Houng: The UK you had a very broad practice. Yes. Let me ask you a very general question, if you don't mind, about the law in terms of mending people's lives. Alright so some individual has a major problem. It's it's so major that they need to turn to lawyers and and the legal process. What area of the law did you as an individual feel that you were helping the most in terms of helping your fellow men get their lives back on track again?

Neville Sarony: I had a slightly out of the ordinary practice because I did both criminal law and civil. My civil law was primarily personal injuries. So again, as a PI lawyer, I was a plaintiff's counsel more than defendants. And if you're trying to help people get [00:23:00] compensation for serious injuries. At least you feel you're doing some good.

Jane_Houng: Yes. Especially if they've been physically damaged, they can't continue.

Neville Sarony: Exactly exactly. And as time goes on, of course, the cases you do become more and more severe.

Jane_Houng: With experience and.

Neville Sarony: Because people come to you with them. The value of these claims goes up. The damage becomes more extensive. So I used to think that, all right, if lawyers can do a lot of damage and in criminal work I always felt that I was on the side of the little guy. Because although people talk about an even playing field, it isn't. So it would come down on, in very simple terms, it could just be, all they would have would be you. Because prosecution had full access to everything they needed. They had the manpower, they had the technical know how, and some, as I say, sometimes, all you had was what you could conjure out of the [00:24:00] case that was brought against your client.

So I enjoyed that. I enjoyed the challenge of that. And it felt good. But, it also meant me destroying the credibility of prosecution witnesses.

Jane_Houng: Oh, okay.

Neville Sarony: So even though the destruction might have been quite bad. rather than angry and bitter. Nevertheless, it's a destruction work. And in my own mind, I used to think, yeah, but I'm constructing when I'm representing people with severe fractures that are not going to heal, people who've lost part of their vision, people who've lost taste of sense and smell. So that in a sense, there was a balance overall, perhaps I suppose there's too much ego in it, but overall I felt that what I was doing was beneficial. Now the big problem, and I think it's one which is really not sufficiently recognized. Anybody who is involved in a legal case, it doesn't matter whether it's civil or criminal, [00:25:00] the stress is horrendous. It is a constant drain because people get it in their minds and it occupies them, to the exclusion of almost everything else. And only when you, only if you've actually been through it.

Jane_Houng: Do you know.

Neville Sarony: Do you really recognize. And it's Sometimes I used to think, and I still do, that if you are appointed to any judicial position, you need to have some insight into the mindset of the person who is the subject matter of this, whether it's a prosecution or a claim. I can well understand, because I was a recorder in England, so I sat on criminal cases, I can well understand how, in a way, a criminal judge likes to insulate himself or herself from the process so that they will not allow their emotions to come into [00:26:00] play. But for God's sake, we're all human beings.

Jane_Houng: Yes, and a lot of criminal acts are done through strong emotion, is that right?

Neville Sarony: And so much, so much emotion is involved. But when you come down to the civil side and the injured plaintiffs, it is quite extraordinary, the stress. There's a category of, I would call them secondary victims. Personal injury claims and I do a lot of medical negligence claims. So many of my clients will be brain damaged especially babies. And Then there'll be men 30 year olds suffer catastrophic injuries, they become paralyzed quadriplegic and they're dependent on somebody else. The impact that has on a family the impact on the wife of a man who one day has a strong healthy vibrant husband they have a full life next it's just a shadow. Such a tragedy now the [00:27:00] courage required of these people is just beyond our ability to conceive of. And I've, I have yet to come across anyone who has walked out on an injured victim. I'm sure it happens. I think I'm lucky so far that has not happened to any of my clients. But these people suffer horrendously and under our system they get no compensation. The most they can get is some form of quasi salary for the care that they give to their partners.

Jane_Houng: Oh yes. The caregiver in the UK anyway.

Neville Sarony: But, caregivers, even the best of them, they're there to do the basics. But there's all the other things. There's the huge emotional support that is needed. And how many wives, mothers just go to bed at night thinking, what has become of my life? I feel [00:28:00] this is a serious lacuna in our system of compensation.

Jane_Houng: In terms of medical cases, I'm listening and I'm thinking of, the the murder of my daughter and for personal reasons and I suppose it's because I was married to a lawyer and I have some familiarity with what you've just said about whether you're the winner or the loser or guilty or innocent. It's hell going through the legal process. So in terms of divorce, not only button, but even with the death of my daughter, I made a conscious decision not to sue anyone. Basically, it was a very conscious decision because so many people were. So angry, so full of emotion. So we are the indirect victims. But did I want to spend the rest of my life in and out of court trying to get compensation or challenge the patriarchal laws in the UK about about burial rights, for example I [00:29:00] feel I, here we are nearly six years later. I'm happy I made this decision because I've got the time and energy to focus on more positive things, my charity work and this podcast. It occupies nearly all my time, but the fallout in the immediate family still remains huge. And it's maybe a lifetime, of loss, bitterness and all those emotions and I think I shared with you Neville. Very shortly after Becky's death. I think I bumped into you and you said something that was so helpful to me at the time which was look just don't worry about anything for five years. Time is a healer. And it sounds very simplistic, but actually in many ways, that was such a valuable thing for you to say, [00:30:00] because apart from the kind of the fallout, let's say financially and it was more like emotionally. And the fact that, the damage and another thing you so kindly shared with me is that people respond to grief in different ways. So if there is a major fallout with close family members, you just have to go with the flow. And at that particular stage, I was, Separated in every sense of the word from my remaining daughter, which felt devastating. And I remember you saying, it might take time. And it did. I think I shared with you last year, because you were, actually you were the only person that I could write directly to and I knew you would understand. I texted you, didn't I?

Neville Sarony: Yes, you did.

Jane_Houng: And said something like, I just wanted to tell you that I have reunited with my daughter and I feel so much happier, peaceful.

Neville Sarony: That was a great [00:31:00] message. That was really good. Because everybody needs to be able to get through trauma of one sort or another. And some trauma will leave you with lifelong grief. How you cope with that grief is going to dictate the way that you run the rest of your life. Unless you can come to terms with it everything you do. And in your case I felt that you were so deeply shocked and it was essential to, to let you know that there was a way out, because otherwise it, it feels as though there is no solution. It's just everywhere is dark. I used to describe it as feeling as though the black clouds were coming up, creeping up around my legs and aiming to basically consume me. Now you [00:32:00] cannot allow that to happen. Not least because the people you have lost wouldn't want it.

Jane_Houng: Yes.

Neville Sarony: And I think that is what matters. I have a very simple approach to this type of loss. So long as these people are alive in our minds, they're alive.

Jane_Houng: I love that. And it, and I resonate with that. And I feel having this experience of losing a very, loved one in this way. It's actually taught me to appreciate life more. And that's why I had this, this hope that ultimately there would be some kind of reconciliation because we're alive. The one that isn't is not. And, what would they like?

Neville Sarony: Absolutely.

Jane_Houng: And who knows, maybe they're looking. It all depends on our belief system, doesn't it?

Neville Sarony: Most belief systems do have a [00:33:00] spiritual element in which there is some form of existence. How you describe that existence will depend upon whatever belief system formal religious training you accept, but there is a spirituality which believes in there being something beyond the here and now. And I think that is something we feel it's an instinctive thing. Don't ask me to go out and prove it because a lot of things in life, it's not provable. But then so much of what we do, if we had to wait for proof, we would not do it. If you want to say, how do I know that you love me?

Jane_Houng: Yeah, how do you quantify love? What is love?

Neville Sarony: There's so many things. And I think that it is terribly important to, to hold on to whatever sense of another world another ether another [00:34:00] sense, because we all get touched by it from time to time. And yes I've got very good friends who I admire enormously who say, you're talking rubbish from an intellectual standpoint. And I say, fine. Then I will quote examples for which they have no answer either.

Jane_Houng: Could you share one of those?

Neville Sarony: Yeah, it was in the army. We had a soldier in my battalion, he was in the British Military Hospital in Singapore, and he was dying. And nobody could actually work out what it was simple. Every specialist looked at him. No one could come up with a diagnosis of what was causing it, but he was dying. All his faculties were falling apart. How old was he? Oh, he's young. In his early twenties. And we had a very good Scottish battalion doctor [00:35:00] very down to earth. He's still a very good friend of mine. And he told me that our mess sergeant, who was a Tamang, Tamangs are wonderful people. They're probably the most beautiful people in the Himalayas. And they live in much the same area as the Sherpas do.

Jane_Houng: Oh, yes.

Neville Sarony: And they are shamanic. Which actually, most Nepalese are.

Jane_Houng: I heard that last night over dinner. Yes, highly educated Nepalese.

Neville Sarony: Forget all this Hindu. They're all shamanic.

Jane_Houng: He was saying that his wife, yeah, she only goes to shamans. Anyway, please continue.

Neville Sarony: He said that Lakhpara san came up to him and said, Saab, can I go and see this man? And Ian said, you think you can help him? He said, yes, Saab. And being sensible, he said, yes, you go. He went in. I don't know what he did. He didn't give him anything to eat or drink. But he went in. And within [00:36:00] 24 hours, he began to recover. And he became fully recovered.

Jane_Houng: And he didn't need to explain what he did. Can that's part of their magic. They have magical powers extraordinary. And you saw that you, he was in your battalion.

Neville Sarony: Yeah. And curiously, we had a young officer from our first battalion. He was based up, we were in Malaya. He was, this young officer was based in Hong Kong. He was visiting us after he left. Akbar said to me. He will die in a fire. And I think within a month, he died. His room caught fire.

Jane_Houng: No. Now, what do you attribute that to? Yourself?

Neville Sarony: I have absolutely no explanation for it. All I can say is that's not the only instance that I have come across. From a personal point of view, I remember the first time that I saw Annapurna. I was driving to Pokhara. I came around a [00:37:00] bend in the road and suddenly the Annapurna range was right there. And I got out of the car and I could feel it. It was just a force. Came off that mountain.

Jane_Houng: I asked the children this morning to sing the National Anthem. And then I asked them to translate. How beautiful it is! It's flowers and trees and the mountains. And the spirituality of the mountains. We, fortunately, as part of this trip, we are going to Pokhara, and we will pass the Annapurna, and I'll see if I can feel that force.

Neville Sarony: Don't look for it. Let it come to you. If it doesn't come, it may come in some other way. And I just think that these things will happen naturally. And . They all help us. All these little things help. I don't think we should try to rationalize them ' cause I think they're beyond rationalization. it's a fe it's a feeling. It's a feeling. [00:38:00]

Jane_Houng: It's a feeling.

Neville Sarony: We are human beings. We are subject to all these different emotions. In the Middle Ages they used to say that there were humors. Which governed the way people behave. And on certain days the humours would make people work one way or another. think there's something in it. I'll give you a very simple example.

Jane_Houng: Please.

Neville Sarony: I used to find it in London. On certain days, most drivers would drive really badly. And you think why? Or maybe there is something in this concept of humours. But there's a great deal we don't understand. That, I think, is the one message we all need to take on board. We know almost nothing. All these brain damage cases that I do, at the end of the day, all the best doctors will say, actually our problem is how little we know. Not how [00:39:00] much.

Jane_Houng: About the brain in particular.

Neville Sarony: About the brain.

Jane_Houng: Yes, mystery.

Neville Sarony: And you can apply that to the rest of life. How little we know. It's a voyage of

Jane_Houng: Self discovery exploration and self discovery. Yes. On that note Let me draw this to a close by thanking you so much for taking the time to travel here and to make this recording. Is there anything else that you'd like to include in this in the context that maybe you could share it with friends or.

Neville Sarony: I, I think it goes back to something that you and I have discussed in the past. The reality is that certain forms of trauma will leave you with grief. And you grieve. And you, the extent to which you grieve will hopefully diminish with the passage of time. And so when we say time heals, it heals to a certain extent. But you [00:40:00] can't just allow that to happen all on its own. You have got to be able to control that, because otherwise, it will control you. And that, none of us can afford.

Jane_Houng: And we have choice.

Neville Sarony: We do have the choice.

Jane_Houng: It's tough, but we do have choice.

Neville Sarony: We must make that choice. Because otherwise, we leave ourselves permanently vulnerable. It doesn't mean that we're any less sensitive. It just means that we've learned to put it in a place where it can no longer hurt us.

Jane_Houng: Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. It's drawing to four o'clock, so maybe it's a time for English tea?

Neville Sarony: Definitely.

Jane_Houng: Definitely. Thank you so much.

Thanks again for listening to Mending Lives with me, Jane Houng. It was produced by Brian Ho. You can find relevant links to [00:41:00] this show in the comments section. I would not, could not, be doing this without many people's support and encouragement. So until next time, goodbye.