Mending Lives

E3_Do Murderers Deserve a Second Chance?

Jane Houng: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Jane Hong, and this is Mending Lives, where I'm talking with people from a patchwork of places. Some have had their lives ripped apart by loss, some are in the business of repairing others brokenness, but we're all seeking to make this world more beautiful. Today's guest is a Hong Kong lawyer, Yasmine Zahir.

She tells us about her legal practice, the legal process around rape. And the duty of a barrister to give their clients a fair trial. Yasmine offers her services pro bono to domestic helpers here and prisoners. That's how we met. Crime always happens for a reason, she said after I divulge details of the domestic situation of my daughter's killer and explain why I think psychosexual killings and serial killers are rare in countries like Lebanon.

Does [00:01:00] Yasmine think murderers deserve a second chance? Does she believe in capital punishment? Do I? Well, here at Mending Lives, given what happened to my daughter, the subject matter is inevitably heavy. What would lead me to forgive her killer, I muse, before moving on to announcing that Yasmine is the newest member of the Becky's Button team.
For now, I outline the activities planned for the next trip, and we brainstorm about how her legal knowledge and expertise could contribute towards the core mission of Becky's Button, reducing gender based violence.

Interestingly, there's a new law which criminalizes sexual harassment in Lebanon. But unfortunately, there are major complexities surrounding its enforcement. Well, who said trying to make a difference was an easy ride? But the great thing about social movements is that everybody can be a part of them. So please consider [00:02:00] jumping on our bandwagon to see where it takes us.

Hi and welcome to Mending Lives. I'm here with Yasmine Zahir, a lawyer, a barrister, and she's based here in Hong Kong.

Yasmine Zahir: Hi Jane.

Jane Houng: Good to see you. Thanks for, did you have any trouble finding here?

Yasmine Zahir: No, it was, it was easy and thanks for having me on here.

Jane Houng: Oh, delighted, absolutely delighted. Now you sent me your curriculum vitae, three pages long. Goodness me, you were schooled in the UK, you studied law at Chinese University here, and started practicing in, as a barrister, in 2014. I'm amazed that you speak five languages fluently. English, your mother language, Cantonese Chinese, that's the native language here, Mandarin Chinese, French, and Spanish. How'd you do that?

Yasmine Zahir: Yeah, I mean, um, I grew up in the UK, so, you know, the English came easy. I mean, I always [00:03:00] learned it in Hong Kong anyway. I came from a mixed background. My mom's Chinese, my dad's Pakistani. So Cantonese, Mandarin just, you know, came as a consequence. And, uh, French I had always learned even when I was in Hong Kong and, you know, going to the UK.

I did that for, for high school and then I just continued with it and it was the same with Spanish. So, I guess here we are.

Jane Houng: Extraordinary. Well, I wonder how much, how many languages you use in your daily work as a trial lawyer for criminal cases here.

Yasmine Zahir: As a trial lawyer, uh, predominantly English and also Cantonese.
I do trials in both Cantonese and English. But, you know, for the Mandarin, for the French, for the Spanish, not so, not so much here at the moment.

Jane Houng: And the cases that you've done range from murder, drug trafficking, burglary, theft, and sexual assaults, which for [00:04:00] obvious reasons I'd like to focus on. Can you tell our listeners a little bit more about the process of bringing justice to women who've been sexually assaulted here?

Yasmine Zahir: We. The process is this, we have, uh, complainants who are making the reports at police stations, and then first and foremost, uh, depending on whether the The complaint and the victim is a minor, then there are different ways of taking the statements. So for example, if it's a minor, then an easier way to take statements or to take the account from the person would be via video recording.

If it's somebody who is above 18, then usually, you know, you can have a written statement taken down and then the case gets investigated. Um, he would go for legal advice at the department of justice, and then you'd have a charge launched [00:05:00] and then a trial. If the defendant or the accused, uh, chooses to plead not guilty or guilty mitigation and.

So it depends on, you know, a lot of different factors, um, but these sorts of offences are by no means simple, usually complex in facts, , usually mixed in with a lot of emotions, um, you would get traumas, you know, from people that are raising the case, , so I think emotionally, um, they are by no means, , straightforward, I would say.

Jane Houng: What's the difference between prosecuting? Mm. a defendant and defending a victim.

Yasmine Zahir: And defending a victim. Um, when you're prosecuting, I mean, the way that I was trained as a lawyer prosecuting, our duty is never to convict. Our duty is to maintain a fair trial, even if it means the [00:06:00] defendant is acquitted at the end of the case.

Our job is not to convict as, , as prosecution. But of course, I think when you are prosecuting. A component that you cannot, uh, factor out is, you know, the interest of a victim, or the interest of somebody who is about to give evidence, and , it's talking about something that is very close to their hearts, you know, whether it's a mother, or a father, or the complainant themselves.

So, you know, it is a difficult balance to strike when they are giving evidence in court, you, you want to maintain, you know, their composure. You want them to be looking at you, you to be guiding them to slowly bring out the evidence of, , what had happened to them because, , often in criminal cases, the evidence in chief, they would have to go through talking about it.

Um, the usual exception to this is if they are minors [00:07:00] and there is mechanism in the law to allow their statement taken in the police station to be adopted as the evidence and chief in the court so that they don't have to go through recounting the whole version once again. So I guess it's a difficult balance because, you know, we all have to maintain the duty to have a fair trial as prosecution, even for the defense, especially for the defense, , for us to protect the fair trial for them.

But at the same time, you do want to. you know, within reason, look after the complainant because they are your witness.

Jane Houng: I'm particularly interested that you said the victims and then actually there are indirect victims like the members of the family. Yeah. And, um, I can resonate with that. Yeah. Um, and going back to the idea of this podcast, Mending Lives, I hope it'll become a platform for people whose lives have been negatively affected, let's say, by Things like sexual violence.[00:08:00]

Let's talk about human rights for a moment, and, , link to just what you've said about the right to a fair trial. Um, I'm thinking that Becky's Button works with marginalized people, less well off people who maybe couldn't afford our panic button. And when I think of marginalized people here in Hong Kong, I think of the domestic helpers.

Have you done any work? with Filipinos or, uh, Sri Lankans? What else? The Indonesians.
Yasmine Zahir: Yeah. Um, yep. I've done trials, , defending domestic helpers and because they are not, you know, the richest. sectors of the community, they usually come via government funded work. So, from the public defense, uh, stream of work.

And, it's interesting, uh, defending them. [00:09:00] Because I would say stakes are higher for them if they get a conviction from a criminal trial. That means their livelihood here. the possibility of having their visa renewed by immigration just goes out of the window. So they can't continue earning their living here like a local, uh, would be able to.
They've been convicted for, for an offense.

Jane Houng: This reminds me that the, uh, the partner of the killer of Becky was actually a domestic helper herself. She was from Ethiopia and she was pregnant and she was in jail. because she'd overstayed her visa. And I, I assume she's back in Ethiopia now, but I mean, this was very aggravating, aggravating circumstances, I imagine, for that taxi driver.
He'd recently come out of jail himself, just about three weeks. He'd been in and out of jail a number of times. He came out more [00:10:00] angry, you know, poorer, more frustrated, um, than maybe ever before. Who knows?

Yasmine Zahir: But I mean, it's interesting because I always believe that crimes don't happen isolated, they always happen for a reason.

If a particular person committed a crime, it would be for a reason. So going back to what you were saying, you know, he came out angrier. He came out, , more aggravated. by his living conditions. Um, there is a cause for, for commission of offences, I believe. I mean, of course, we have the, the serial, um, offenders who are in a completely different category.
You know, there's no reason.

Jane Houng: Interestingly, in Lebanese culture, that's extremely rare. And that's why so many people know about Becky's case. It was so unusual. Because yes, it's a very family oriented society like [00:11:00] Hong Kong and many parts of Asia. Yeah, yeah. But anyway, please continue because actually I'm also interested to know more about your pro bono work with murderers here, um, lifers, right?

I know that you've worked with the Long Term Prison Sentence Review Board on a, , on a few cases and, and you're well acquainted with the procedure, which maybe we won't talk about now because it's not terribly relevant and, uh, to this podcast, but I'm very interested to know what you think. I mean, do people who've committed such a heinous crime, do they, do they deserve a second chance, Yasmine?

Yasmine Zahir: I mean, I myself believe, yes, you know, I, I do think they, , they deserve a second chance. I mean, going back to what I was saying earlier, I, I do think for a lot of crimes, they happen for a reason. Um, and the statistics do show that with a Uh, murderers, or with murderers, they're usually [00:12:00] committed, I mean, a large part of, , of murders are committed by people that know or knew the victims, whether it's a loved one or whether it's a friend, relative, and pushing further on, there would be a reason for, usually, , for why these murders were committed in the first place.

And so, and so for, for these people, I do believe that, you know, where possible, within reason, um, we, they should be given a second chance. It could have just been, flash of error of judgment. Um. But of course, you know, the consequences compared to other crimes are much more serious and I guess that's the stigma that, that comes with people who are on the other side of the debate saying that, they should be locked up in prison forever.

But I, I mean, I think. Yeah, they do deserve a second chance.

Jane Houng: My experience has made me think about [00:13:00] this area very deeply. I've read a lot about it. I do have my own views, but anyway, let's focus on you. But oh, one thing I would like to ask you because, um, the taxi driver is actually serving life without parole and there, uh, he, there's capital punishment in Lebanon.

Um, I don't think any, any have been carried out since 2008, but he's, he's on death row. He was 26 years old when this happened. Do you believe in capital punishment?

Yasmine Zahir: I don't. Um, simply because There have been, , many examples in the past in legal history where, you know, you can get it wrong and you can kill the wrong person thinking that they were the murderer at the time, but then later on finding out that actually they weren't and there's nothing you can do.[00:14:00]

To reverse the capital punishment, you know, it's done. , I think life imprisonment, sitting in an institution for, you know, 30 years, 40 years, 50 years without parole is in itself a punishment dark enough because they say. You know, to be locked up inside , for a certain period of time, that does something to, to your mind, you know, it's, it's a big question, , capital punishment, , giving people a second chance, because we're dealing with really sensitive issues here, um, we're dealing with trauma, you know, from, for victims and victims families, but I think, vis a vis my work with the long term prison sentence review, uh, cases, families, I think where you have got people that are willing to improve upon themselves after they're locked up, wanting to do [00:15:00] degrees, wanting to learn more, wanting to give themselves a second chance by, you know, trying to learn about the world, trying to be a better person, then I think the external world should be in a position where they are ready to receive that remorse.

Jane Houng: Um, I agree. I agree entirely. And I've, again, I've thought about this deeply given my, you know, personal circumstances, but I do believe that if the taxi driver was studying was, he felt remorseful, um, he'd renewed contact with his family to apologize for what he did, um, and showed some aptitude for making a living outside.

So maybe some vocational training, that kind of thing, then I think I would be willing [00:16:00] to forgive. But anyway, that's another big subject. But yeah, yeah. Let's. Let's just move aside about this because I think what we need to tell our listeners, Yasmine, is that, um, Yasmine has offered her services and she's going to join the Becky's Button team and, um, she's coming to Lebanon in May.

Yasmine Zahir: Yeah. Yay. I'm actually very excited.

Jane Houng: One of the countries you haven't been to. Yeah, yeah, definitely. But you can read Arabic, you were telling me earlier. So, wow, you, I mean, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to share a car with you.

Yasmine Zahir: Yeah, I mean, it's very, very, very limited functions, you know, but, but I guess.

Jane Houng: Well, seriously, I'm, I'm absolutely delighted because, um, I really, uh, I feel I need you to assist me in speaking coherently about the law on sexual harassment and its implementation. Um. I think, yes, it's a good time to tell our listeners [00:17:00] about Becky's Button, um, if they don't know. It's a simple panic alarm which, when pressed, gives women a few vital seconds to run away from attacker and file a report, ideally to the ISF hotline.

And our three principal objectives are to raise awareness, enhance women's safety, and anti commercialize women's safety. And in the last two years, we've worked with local NGOs in Lebanon to distribute the buttons to vulnerable women. But in 2024, we are shifting the dialogue. We want to foster a country where men champion the safety and dignity of women.

And, uh, we're focusing on encouraging men to respect women more, protect them more, help as a bystander if needs be. And I like to think, as a bereaved mother, my story will let people listen and think about what they [00:18:00] really believe about that. Now, back to you, Yasmine, because I'm, I believe that your experience in sexual assault cases will contribute to These objectives, what do you think?

Yasmine Zahir: Yeah, I uh, without sounding immodest, I concur.

Jane Houng: What are you going to do?

Yasmine Zahir: Um, I, I think, you know, as a trial lawyer, uh, having worked for both sides, prosecuting and defending, um, what I constantly look at when I do trials is the evidence, the procedure, the actual law, and I think with the developments that are happening in Lebanon regarding, for example, the anti sexual harassment law, law 205.

Um, I think there is a lot of relevance that I can draw from my experience, for example, with [00:19:00] statement taking, um, at the initial stages with police officers at a police station, you know, if we are expecting the complainants as the victims. to have to not go through the trauma of taking or of going through the versions of accounts again in the courtroom in their evidence in chief, then it is essential at the police station, when the initial statement taking is done, that the right questions are asked, that the, uh, the details are extracted from the victim.

Of course, whilst catering for, , the emotions and whatnot. For it to be done in a very proper way before it's brought to the trial, uh, stages, which would be, you know, some significant time later. So I guess, in terms of evidence taking, in terms of criminal procedural rules, I think I can draw from those [00:20:00] experiences that I've had in the past, and hopefully, you know, make some sort of difference. I think.

Jane Houng: What was said in the one Zoom call that we've had with our main partners in Lebanon, uh, Siren Associates, gives you the idea that there is a problem at that level of, um, reporting, isn't there? Because we heard that some poor women have to say, to make a statement three times because of the, the makeup and the structure, let's say.

Um, I can't imagine. how that could be. But, and I think another thing for listeners less familiar with Lebanon, we should, we should tell you that the law about sexual harassment in Lebanon is very new. It only was on, what do you say, it wasn't implemented until 2020. Um, and it's rather vague, even for someone like me who look at it, right?[00:21:00]

They've described sexual harassment as bad behavior. You know, behavior that's unwanted by the victim, behavior with a sexual connotation, but it all sounds a bit nebulous to me. What about you?

Yasmine Zahir: I think so too, but nevertheless, you want to make a difference, it starts with a belief that you can, and with law 205, it's a really good starting point.

Um, Because it shows that there is big intention there to cater for, um, concerns of sexual harassment that perhaps were not as encouraged before. Um, ultimately, with victims coming forward, you know, it's, it's a huge hurdle to jump. And I think Law 205 is a very good starting point for it. Um, of course, there are ways to implement and [00:22:00] introduce specificities, well, what constitutes verbal harassment?
What constitutes, you know, sexual harassment by, by action? So I think these things, you know, can be, the fine print can be worked on, but I think it's really good that we have a framework there, because it shows that everybody wants to improve, um, this area of the community, you know, this issue.

Jane Houng: And one thing that. I've noticed as a westerner is the social mores regarding sexual harassment are more in line with how things were when I was a teenager rather than now. I mean things have changed. Many people don't even know what sexual harassment is. is in Lebanon. So part of our awareness this year is, part of our mission this year is to, is to just educate people about what sexual harassment is.

Yasmine Zahir: Because I think often is the case when you don't know sexual harassment as a female, you [00:23:00] feel uncomfortable with, you know, for example, if it's verbal sexual harassment, you, you feel uncomfortable with the words that you are listening to that are directed at you. We can't quite pinpoint. Why it is that you're feeling uncomfortable, and I think the part of the education of sexual of You know, teaching girls what sexual harassment means is to be able to guide them, to be able to pinpoint why it is that that particular comment is making me feel uncomfortable, to be able to identify the exact reason.

And at the moment, I think we've, we've got the intuition in us to the point where we feel the discomfort, but we might not necessarily know how to like vocalize it? Right.

Jane Houng: Hey, maybe you can come along with me to one of, uh, a secondary school in Tripoli, um, where I'm going to speak about sexual harassment.

Um, I'll be bringing along a man, [00:24:00] um, who is a musician actually. We've been brainstorming how we can basically grab the attention of young people about this very important topic. But I mean, that's where it starts in your teenage years, does it not? I mean, how, yeah, your, your hormones are telling you you're interested in the opposite sex.

And then it's, uh, then, yeah, that is the time, I believe, where we could possibly. Make a difference. And, um, if you could be around answering about these more technical things from the legal side, were you
interested?

Yasmine Zahir: I would love that. I'm always interested, Jane. Anything you do. Well,
Jane Houng: if you come, then, um, we'll also be going to a local NGO called March in capital letters as in February.

And, uh, we have 500 Becky's Buttons and, uh, We will be distributing them to very, what can I say, people [00:25:00] very much in need. Uh, Tripoli is twice the size of Beirut. There are a large population of the less as Shia Muslims and Shiite Muslims. They were the ones that expressed interest in getting Becky's Button.

We've actually been working with a local NGO called RDFL for over a year now in that respect, but the British Embassy. has expressed interest in this and actually they were the ones that introduced us to the local NGO and, um, the ambassador will come because he was supposed to come last time, but last time being, oh goodness.

Last May, and we all got in cars to drive the hundred miles or so from Beirut to Tripoli. And when we arrived, we were [00:26:00] informed that there'd been a shooting on the street very close to, uh, this center, this women's center. So unfortunately Uh, this event didn't take place, but yeah, I got an email only yesterday from a project manager in the British embassy saying, Hey, we must fix the date.

So it'll be the 14th or 15th of May. Oh, okay.

Yasmine Zahir: Amazing. Wow, wow, wow. I'm looking forward to that.

Jane Houng: Yes. Um, you can also come to a concert, um, I think, have you, have, has Brian told you about this?

Yasmine Zahir: I, I think he has briefly talked to me about it. Um, this concert that holds, uh, , two hundred and fifty?

Jane Houng: Correct. Yeah. Yes. In central Beirut. It's going to be, um, the American University of Beirut, AUB it's called. Okay. And we're going to have Mike Lindup, who, uh. has been described as a superstar in his time, but no, he's, he's a very famous. [00:27:00] Um, keyboard and founder of Level 42 and, um, he also has expressed, , an interest to come along and, um, and see what he can do as a musician.

We're looking for a cultural shift somehow, and I mean, I think it's a really tall order. Um, but yeah, let me, let's talk about the religious cause. Let's go back to the law and, and. what we've learned about there being 18 religious courts that have considerable power in terms of sexual harassment and they certainly seem to complicate the strict application of the law.
My wish is, is to move them by just telling my simple story. But as a lawyer, yes, back to the law. I mean, what, , what do you think you could do or from a legal perspective to, to [00:28:00] what? To, to simplify the, or recommend? A simplification of the process, the legal process.

Yasmine Zahir: The With 18 religious sacks.

Jane Houng: We're going to know more about this when we have our next Zoom call with Siren. And maybe that's, yes, maybe let's talk about that another time because we need more information, don't we?

Yasmine Zahir: Yeah, but I think the underlying taking that topic out of the equation. I mean, just the idea of making a difference. and implementing standards of how, for example, men are to conduct themselves or how women are to conduct themselves in the context of, you know, sexual harassment.

It does call for a certain level of consistency and unification, um, and with the development of [00:29:00] law, usually it's incremental, you know, it's gradual, it takes into account the context of culture, of of habits, of people's ways, and you implement laws that hopefully would also be a reflection of that particular country's, um, usual ways of life and culture.

But at the same time, I do believe there has to be a component of consistency in order for the law to be, one, taken seriously and to be enforced properly. Enforced properly. So I think where you are dealing with, you know, mixed cultures, then, , perhaps the realms of considerations will be thrown wide open.

Yeah, there are more factors to consider, more things. To, to look at more, more quests for common [00:30:00] grounds, I guess, but as you say, you know, we're all about to have another zoom call on this. So let's, yes,

Jane Houng: let's listen carefully to that. Yeah, it goes without saying when, when we go in May, I'm going to introduce you to as many politicians as I can.

I'll introduce you to. a lady who helped me go through the process in the criminal court case related to Becky, my daughter, she's called Brigitte Chelebien. And she was so kind and helpful. Um, but interestingly, she also has her own NGO. Uh, it's called Justice Without Frontiers. And she. campaigns passionately on women's rights.

She's actually been to New York for UN meetings representing the country, talking about these issues. So, so I'd definitely like to introduce you to her. I would love that. I'm excited. Mm. And then we'll meet Amani, the lady that [00:31:00] you, you met, um, who gave us the overview. Yeah. Um, but one thing I also have in my mind is asking you to help me craft a narrative to speak with members of parliaments or authorities regarding the aims of Becky's Button Project.
This is part of our, our efforts to become more vocal. Mm. Get the message across. Men should protect, not pray, and ideally we're going to get a liberal politician championing this cause, and through contacts, um, I've met over the six years now I've been going back and forth. I'm There's a possibility, all right, that we will be able to introduce, uh, to meet some politicians to inform them what we're doing and why and get them on board.

So [00:32:00] how do you fancy joining me on the equivalent, on the equivalent of LegCo here?
Yasmine Zahir: Um, well, the answer is I'm very much looking forward to going on this journey with you. It's such a meaningful cause, and you know, because it's such a close cause to your heart, that it, by consequence, would mean a lot to me.

Because, you know, you're very important to me. So, of course, I take it very seriously, too. I think it's a meaningful cause. Um, and whatever journey you take me on, I shall follow, Jane.
Jane Houng: Let's see where we go. It goes without saying that it's fantastic that, um, that you've shown such strong interest. Do you have any questions for me?

Yasmine Zahir: Um, no, actually. I, I shall blindly follow you, Jane, wherever you take me. No questions asked.

Jane Houng: Yeah, I've heard there's a, [00:33:00] there's a lively nightlife in Beirut, but I've never, I've never been there.

Yasmine Zahir: Maybe you, you could explore with me.

Jane Houng: Okay. Maybe if you really want to go, I might consider, but I mean, it's not top of my list of things to do, okay. Okay. The food's fantastic.

Yasmine Zahir: Okay. I'm more excited about that, to be honest, you know, I'm, I'm happy and I'm excited to try all these different, um, delicious cuisines cause I heard it's very, you know, the culture is very mixed and therefore. I would assume, I don't know, I would assume, , the food will be very, you know, fused with different components from different cultures.

Jane Houng: It's fantastic. It's fresh. Um, a lot of people eat out. It's a very lively country and I didn't know it. I mean, I knew where it was on a map until my daughter was killed there. And whenever she talked about Lebanon, she was there for about 10 months in all. She just spoke so enthusiastically about the [00:34:00] country, the people, the places.

You know, there's history, there's geography, there's, it's a holy land. I mean, it's a fascinating country. And the people that I've met have been so very kind and dynamic. Yep, so let's see how it goes.

Yasmine Zahir: Yeah, I'm excited having heard all of that. You're, you're, uh, starting to be a tourist ambassador.

Jane Houng: No. Well, I, from what you've seen.

I'll put you with a driver and you can go and have a day trip. No, no, no, seriously. I'd like to go to some places again. Yeah. Because I wasn't in the mood for sightseeing for at least four years. I think it was the fifth year. I thought, okay, let's go and see where the alphabet was invented or, you know, let's go and see this ancient Roman remain.

But it's, um. There's lots to do and I sincerely hope that we have a meaningful trip and a trip that will [00:35:00] actually enable us to envision a future where we can become more and more effective in terms of reducing sexual violence in Lebanon.

Yasmine Zahir: Thank you.

Jane Houng: All the best, Yasmine. Bye.

Yasmine Zahir: Bye.

Jane Houng: Thanks again for listening to Mending Lives with me. Jane Houng. It was produced by Brian Hou. You can find relevant links to this show in the comments section. I would not, could not, be doing this without many people's support and encouragement. So until next time, [00:36:00] goodbye.