Spark of the Divine: Exploring Faith and Meaning with Father Will
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Jane_Houng: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Jane Hong, and this is Mending Lives, where I'm talking with people from a patchwork of places. Some have had their lives ripped apart by loss, some are in the business of repairing others brokenness, but we're all seeking to make this world more beautiful.
Father Will is a member of the clergy at St John's Cathedral. St John's is the cathedral of the Anglican Diocese of Hong Kong and Macau and the seat of the Archbishop of Hong Kong and the Bishop of Hong Kong Island. Father Will is also the priest in charge of St Stephen's Chapel in Stanley and the school chaplain at St Stephen's College, as well as a prison chaplain at Stanley Prison, the largest maximum security prison for men in Hong Kong.
Father Will and I first met in Beijing in the 1990s when he was working for Voluntary Services Overseas, an [00:01:00] international British based charity where volunteers work alongside the world's most marginalized and vulnerable people. Interestingly, my daughter Becky also worked for this organization in the early 2000s.
Father Will has lived in Hong Kong for over 20 years, witnessing many changes in the territory since its handover to mainland China. You will hear a wide ranging discussion on Christian faith, the interfaith movement, and prisoners.
Father Will, I consider it very fortunate to be meeting you today because I'm going to a writer's workshop in Kathmandu in the next few weeks. And I thought I woke up this morning. I thought, Oh, I'll just look at my memoir and think what passage I can read because these writers workshops, you know, you're always asked to read a little something.
So I looked at my memoir, you know, I saw photos of my [00:02:00] daughter, I, I reread what I wrote, and, um, didn't think much about it until after breakfast. And then suddenly I thought, oh, you know, I just feel so heavy, feel so sad. And I sat down and thought, okay, what, , what is it, Jane? And I reasoned that that was the reason.
So images, objects, places are very triggering for me.
Father_Will: I can completely understand that, Jane. And, uh, , I lost my mother just before Christmas and it's some, she died a natural death she's 94 years old. But even then, things suddenly catch you and you suddenly tear up again, and so for a different situation that, that you had with your daughter's death, um, such a, an awful, terrible situation, um, I'm sure that happens even more.
Jane_Houng: Well, [00:03:00] it's a loss of a loved one. Um, a mother, a very profound loss. And one thing I've found is to go with the emotion and just cry or feel sad and then maybe go for a walk or read some poetry or do something. , and then it goes and then that weight is lifted. But, , Instead I had to rush for a ferry to come here and thank you for telling me something about your life Um, you know, as usual, I like to, to read a little bit about my guests and, , we should explain to our listeners that, uh, we're both British and we're both based in Hong Kong. Um, I've been here longer than you, but we met in Beijing in the late 90s.
Father_Will: Yes, that was uh, that feels like a long time ago.
Jane_Houng: It does to me too. I was working for a freight [00:04:00] forwarding company and you were working for for an NGO. What was that exactly?
Father_Will: I was working for Voluntary Service Overseas, VSO, uh, which is like, I explained to people, it's, it's like the British Peace Corps, um, which is an American organization that may be better known.
Um, and, so I was working first as a teacher for two years in a small town in Southwest China, and then four years in the office in Beijing.
Jane_Houng: Funnily enough, Becky worked for VSO. She worked in Bahrain and it was a six month project. Three months at the time she was in Bahrain and I met a beautiful Sunni Muslim family because Becky was living in their home and then Fahima, her name was, then she came to live with Becky in Brighton for three months.
It's, it's um, it's still going strong, I believe, the VSO.
Father_Will: I, I trust it is. I, I have to confess I haven't kept in touch and what effect COVID [00:05:00] has and, uh, or had and, and how things have moved since then. I'm not sure.
Jane_Houng: Am I right in thinking that you didn't get the calling until your late 30s, early 40s?
Father_Will: Late 30s?
Well, I, I first felt called to, or rather the spark that started, that finished up with me becoming a priest, um, was while we were living in Beijing in the early 90s. And, , it was something that came out of the blue and was quite unexpected. Um, and I can tell you about it if we have time.
Jane_Houng: A little, tell us a little now if that's alright with you, because maybe this is personal.
Father_Will: No, no, no. My my wife's uncle came to stay with us for a days in Beijing. He was at that time professor of economics at Newcastle University in England. And he's a Christian. And one evening he and I were chatting. He hardly knew me. We hadn't we hadn't really met [00:06:00] before.
But we were talking about the church that my wife and I used to go to in Beijing and out of the blue, he said, Have you ever thought of becoming a priest? And I was completely taken by surprise. But that was the seed that was planted. And A year or two after that, we went back to the UK and, um, in South London, I got involved in my local parish church.
And, and over the next few years, there was just a growing feeling that this was what I should be doing with my life. And that's how I ended up going to train for ordination and became a priest and, um, ended up coming to St. John's Cathedral, Hong Kong.
Jane_Houng: And how we reconnected was through St. John's, which is where we are now, a beautiful library, to record this.
And, my story is, um, I started volunteering in maximum security prisons, um, before my daughter was killed. And, I was [00:07:00] struck by so many, in particular, lifers who were serving an indeterminate sentence, so they'd Had no idea if stroke when they were going to be released. Many of them had turned to God and it I was brought up a nonbeliever.
My parents were, , hedonistic, , musicians, professional musicians. I had a wonderful childhood, but, , I, I woke up in prisons and I thought, what is going on here? And I felt that God was giving them, forgiveness. That was one thing, but also there was a moral code there that, um, they felt that if they were adhering to day by day would lead them, lead their thoughts, their actions, everything to a better situation, and they could become a new person.
Does that make sense?
Father_Will: It does. Um, part of my work as, as you know, Jane [00:08:00] in, , in Hong Kong is that I am the Anglican chaplain at Hong Kong's high security prison, the big high security prison here. Hong Kong doesn't have the death sentence unlike mainland China. Um, so people who are convicted of murder are given life sentences.
And so up until the COVID pandemic and where we're restarting now, um, every Friday I used to go into Stanley prison with, , some volunteers from the church and take services with groups of prisoners. And so I, over the years, Um, as you say, they're on indeterminate life sentences. And , some of the guys in Stanley Prison I have known for nearly 20 years now.
And certainly, some of them have encountered God in prison. [00:09:00] Um,
Jane_Houng: What does that mean to you when you say they've encountered?
Father_Will: To me, they have found a different way of living. You, you said that the moral code helps them. I was, I was in a slightly different context. I, I was just reading something recently that said that Christianity is not actually about a moral code.
It's about spiritual transformation. But I think maybe the two go together. The a lot of the guys that I have met in Stanley Prison were with the triads, the Chinese gangs, that, uh, prevalent, very prevalent in Hong Kong, and, and that are prone to be extremely violent. And that's how they've ended up in prison for murder.
And so they were with those gangs, they were in that violent kind of environment, [00:10:00] and going into prison, and coming to church services, they have. discovered there's a completely different way of life.
Jane_Houng: And maybe a peace that the Holy Spirit can give them. I've definitely felt something very spiritual, um, when talking to certain people.
Um, ä½ æœƒèªªå»£æ±è©±å—Ž (can you speak cantonese)?
Father_Will: 我ä¸æœƒå»£æ±è©±, 我會講普通話 (I don’t speak Cantonese, I can speak Mandarin)。
Jane_Houng: Oh, you're like me then . Um, well I can understand a fair amount 'cause I've lived here for so for so long, but, uh, um, in the prisons that are not just Chinese, right, there are people from all over the world. Do you find, do you have a story of, of, , a prisoner that you engaged with, let's say more, more intimately because you didn't have the language barrier,
Father_Will: so, um. Some of the prisoners that I've known for a long time, some of the Hong Kong guys, [00:11:00] um, are actually quite fluent in English. Um, but there are also foreigners, as you say, there's, , Indians, Filipinos, um, and, apart from the, the guys who are in for murder, um, the other guys who are in, the high security part of Stanley Prison are there for drug smuggling, and they're all foreigners.
They're either Africans or Latin Americans. That's where the drugs come from, or the way they're brought in.
Jane_Houng: It must be a fairly colourful day to day existence living in that prison, would you agree? Right, right. I've never been inside the prison, I just go to the visitor's room.
Father_Will: So, thinking about some of the guys I've known. They all have different stories. Not all of them were involved with the triads. Um, there was one prisoner, in for murder who, , was gambling heavily on the horses, which is the only [00:12:00] legal form of betting in, in Hong Kong, um, got into debt and the only solution he could find was to murder the guy he owed money to.
Um, There's another whose sister was being blackmailed and he took it upon himself to, to free her from the blackmailer and murdered the blackmailer. Um, And so everyone has a different story. There's another who told me that when he was a little boy, he was in an elevator with a bigger boy. And the bigger boy who was a neighbor, opened a can of Coke and poured it over his head.
And of course, he was a little guy and he couldn't do anything. And he complained to his parents about this. And his parents, We're [00:13:00] unable to do anything. And so he thought if no, if if my parents can't give me protection, where can I get protection from? And that's how he ended up with the triads.
So everybody has their own story.
Jane_Houng: I think it's fair to say that there are always exacerbating circumstances. , that's been my experience of communicating, , with prisoners. Um, I don't know whether you know, but the murderer of my daughter, uh, has a death sentence. What do you think about that?
Father_Will: I, I can't believe that the death sentence is right.
Jane_Houng: Me too, by the way. Yeah. Um, but please, as, , as a priest and as a pastor, as a chaplain, tell me why you believe that.
Father_Will: The transformation I have seen in some of those guys that I've known for a long time is what [00:14:00] convinces me that the death penalty is, is wrong.
Um, the people Who have changed. I sometimes think of what can you do if, if you are someone who has killed, who has committed murder, you can't put it right by bringing the person back to life because the life has gone. What can you do? There's a story in the Bible of a tax collector called Zacchaeus. And when he encounters Jesus, he says, If I've cheated anybody, I will repay four times what I owe.
He puts right what he's done wrong. Tax collectors were all out to make money in those days. That was the way the system worked.
Jane_Houng: But no, no, no, no, [00:15:00] no, no, no, no, no. Go on.
Father_Will: Um, and, and so he's, he's got a way to put things right. But what can you do if you've murdered somebody? You can't bring them back to life.
But what I realized you can do, and I realized this through what I've seen in Stanley Prison, um, What you can do is to start living from now in a way that gives life to people around you. There are people on, there are guys on life sentence who are not waiting until they're released to live in a better way. They are starting to live in a better way now in Stanley Prison in the way they relate to their fellow prisoners and the officers and, uh, their lives are changed and they are a force for good in the world.
Jane_Houng: One way of looking at a prison, is it not, is, um, as a monastery. [00:16:00] Um, as long as you're fed and, , and watered and have a bed to sleep on, you know, the conditions in Hong Kong prisons are, I think it's fair to say good by world standards, um, but there, there is a chance to to educate yourself better, to learn languages, maybe through your fellow prisoners, um, to do exercise.
Um, do you think that the correctional services here are doing enough in terms of rehabilitation?
Father_Will: That's a difficult question, Jane. Um. I think, like, like many things, there's always more that could be done. Um, I think by world standards, they, they do a reasonable job.
Um, I think there are many worse places, uh, to be a prisoner than Hong Kong.
Jane_Houng: The prison that, um, my daughter's killer is, known to be terrible. It's grossly overcrowded, um, sleeping on [00:17:00] the floor. There's absolutely no chance for education, even food isn't served. You have to get it through your family or your friends.
And if you've been ostracized, which many people are, and I imagine, um, the taxi driver is in his Sunni Muslim community, um, even getting food. It is difficult. And, um, I know that I'm open to scrutiny by, by saying this kind of thing. Um, you know, I, I, for some reason, it's been six years now, I do have fairly liberal values, let's say, but I just feel that it is such a loss for his family as well.
Um, He had been recently released from prison when he took my daughter. Um, he was angry, he was broke, um, he lived in a very [00:18:00] poor area of Beirut. So what's the solution? I mean, just to lock him up. Pete these kind of people away and throw away the key. Surely not.
Father_Will: No, that that is is no solution. I mean, it's the absolute minimal ensuring that he doesn't do it again, but um in terms of giving him something to hope for, giving him something to work towards something positive in his life.
Of course, it's, it's doing nothing for him
Jane_Houng: or society
Father_Will: or society
Jane_Houng: I know what I'd like to talk about your work in the interfaith movement here in Hong Kong, because I know you're a prominent figure. Why Hong Kong? And why do you do this?
Father_Will: So I'm, I, I chair Um, a very informal organization called HKNRP, the Hong Kong Network on Religion and Peace.
And, uh, this is something that I slightly [00:19:00] fell into, but, um, I mean, my interest in interfaith goes back to 911 when I was still in the UK. I was actually still at, uh, at seminary. Um, and when that happened, and people started talking about the clash of civilizations, and I thought that can't be allowed to happen, because that way we will destroy each other.
And I felt I need to learn more about other religions. And so when the opportunity came here in Hong Kong to to get involved in in this interfaith network.
So I think in, in every community, um, there, there are people of different faiths and we have to learn to live together. And the Interfaith Network brings people together. [00:20:00] And my experience from the Interfaith Network is that talking with people of different faiths, uh, I learn from them, they learn from me.
Um, they will ask me questions that make me think and reflect more deeply on my faith. Um, and, , as I talk with them and ask them questions, then they tell me about their faith and I hear things that enlarge my faith. So, nobody's trying to convert anyone. Um, we, we just learn from each other and we, we grow in our own faith.
And, and, and grow a larger understanding. Of course, we also find places where we disagree. Um, but then if we can balance that with, with what we do agree and, and how we, how we [00:21:00] can work together, um, then, then that's, that's something that I think is, is good for, for, for people of faith and it's good for the whole of society.
Jane_Houng: I'm thinking, when all the chips are off the table, um, and you're talking to people about things that really matter, we all are looking for very similar things, right? We want peace. We want to be loved by our loved ones. Um, we want a pleasant community so that we feel, um, that we are engaging in everyday life in a meaningful way.
I know these are very basic things, but, um, I never thought of life quite in that way until I lost my daughter. And, um, I've been trying to go to those interfaith meetings, as you know, and twice now they've been fully booked by the time I get [00:22:00] online. So is it growing? I mean, yeah, who have we got in in Hong Kong and why are they so popular?
Father_Will: So we actually have about 200 people on our mailing list of all religions. Um, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Baha'i, Christians, of course, Buddhists and Taoists, we're all part of this. And there's there's no kind of official representation. As I said, it's an informal network of people who want to meet other people of people of other faiths and, and have this kind of exchange and this growing, um, Uh, and we, we have a, um, a, a dinner coming up, a, a Ramadan dinner, an Ifda dinner.
Um, but you'll, I think you'll be out of Hong Kong by then. It's just after Easter.
Jane_Houng: Oh, too bad 'cause Yes, I am going to be on the road, um, [00:23:00] from the 1st of April. I'm going to the UK, um, to spend a little time with my grandchildren. Um, I'm going to the States as part of Rebecca Dyke's Writers. I've mentioned in the past that, uh, I set up this organization for writers who have stories to tell, difficult stories, um, for children.
They're kidlit authors, and we want to tell stories in a way that doesn't hurt. traumatized children. Um, and then, oh yeah, I'm, I'm going to Lebanon as part of Becky's Button. Um, I'm going to Southern India where I already have someone lined up to be a future guest and I'm going to end up in that writer's retreat, which I mentioned, um, earlier on.
So yeah, I'm most unfortunately, um, I will not be here at that time, but I definitely like to come next year.
Father_Will: We'll, we'll make a date.
Jane_Houng: And what's the format of these meetings? I [00:24:00] mean, do people take turns in advocating their religion or what happens?
Father_Will: Yeah. So, um, what we've done in, in the past is that , we've met monthly in different places, different, different religions have hosted.
And, uh, we have a taste of their prayers or their worship of whatever kind. And we have a meal together and, um, we choose a topic and somebody , will speak on that. And then we have general discussion on it. So, um, , so we're talking about different things and, we're, uh, appreciating each other's style of worship and prayers and, and then we're, we're dialoguing together.
Jane_Houng: Sounds very interesting, so, uh, I'll be looking out for that.
Hong Kong has such a wide range of people, um, one thing that [00:25:00] saddens me a little bit about the future, uh, in Hong Kong is that certain people are choosing to leave, , I suppose what I want to say is that I, I truly hope that that kind of initiative continues and going forward I'd like to play more of a part in that.
Um, you know that I was, uh, christened and baptized in 2018. It was the year after my daughter was killed. I'd already signed up for the, for those classes. And then, oh, I got the news. But I thought, well, why not continue? So that's when we sort of reconnected face to face. Because you, you play a part in that.
Um, and I have been, for want of a better word, dabbling around in other religious beliefs. Um, and one thing I discovered was that, there is a place called Plum Village, very close to where I live on Lantau Island, and these are Zen Buddhists that [00:26:00] have, uh, followed, are following, I should say, even though he's, he's passed on, um, Thich Nhat Hanh, the famous Vietnamese monk who tried so hard to stop the Vietnamese war and failed, um, but, uh, Are they part of the interfaith movement too?
Father_Will: Yes, they are.
Jane_Houng: Very good. , because, , just going up there, as well as coming to your Stanley Church, um, I'm still searching. Um, I think the only way out of this kind of loss is, is some kind of spiritual search, um, a spiritual path. And, um, I value the opportunities still open to me in Hong Kong. Very much.
Father_Will: That's wonderful. You are most welcome to, to be more involved in interfaith work in future.
Jane_Houng: I wish I lived closer to Stanley. Um, because, uh, yeah, the chapel. The what? The one that you give [00:27:00] regular services to. Um, it, I feel it's a very special place. It's slightly set aside, isn't it? Um, from, from the thrum of the city, let's say.
It's in a beautiful surrounding, overlooks the sea, there's space there, people stay around for a coffee afterwards, and, um, Maybe the last question I'd like to ask you, if you don't mind, is about your work as a school chaplain, because I know the chapel's linked to a school here.
Father_Will: So, yes, um, the chapel is actually the school chapel of St. Stephen's College, which is a Um, , a mixed boys and girls, uh, secondary school in Stanley in Hong Kong. And so I'm the school chaplain there, as you said. And, so my work there includes, taking assemblies and giving religious, uh, Messages to the students and teachers there. Um, it's obviously a an Anglican [00:28:00] foundation Um, although most of the students and teachers these days, of course are not christian but they they come and they expect that they're going to get christian messages I take evening services with the school boarders.
They have weekly boarders and I take evening services with them and Uh Other times I deliver prayers and so on. Just a couple of months ago, one of the school security guards, a really nice guy, not particularly old, died of cancer that was undetected until a week before he died. And we had a school assembly shortly after that.
And I talked then with to the students and staff about, about death and about those we love who've [00:29:00] died.
Jane_Houng: So you are actively involved in pastoral work as well with young people.
Father_Will: Yes, indeed.
Jane_Houng: Well, with all the existential threats going on in this modern world, , and we shouldn't generalize, but, , for the students at your school, what do you think you can say to them to, to give them hope and confidence going forward?
Father_Will: I think I, I say to them. What I say in my sermons and when I'm in the prison, I talk to them about the Christian religion and the light that it gives. One thing I, I wanted to say from the, the time of, um, when we were talking about the, uh, prisoners, one thing that, that happened just a couple of years after I [00:30:00] started going was that I was talking one day with the prisoners about light and dark which are familiar christian themes religious themes more widely and I naively said, do you think of prison as a place of darkness?
And two of the prisoners immediately said, no, prison is a place of light. And I asked them to explain. And they said it was while we were outside that we were involved with the triads doing violent things. And that was the time of darkness and coming into the prison encountering Christianity, we have discovered light.
And if, if that is something that brings hope and confidence for the future, whether to prisoners or to students who are facing such a complex [00:31:00] world and so many different challenges, uh, then that's, that's something that the Christian religion can do.
Jane_Houng: That story sends shivers up my spine. Um, very touching.
Um, really touching. And, um, I'm just thinking who those people came across in their daily life that maybe they didn't meet, outside. And maybe those are some compassionate correctional services officers. Maybe some welfare officers and pastors. Uh, we all need light. It's something that I constantly strive for on a daily basis. Um, phew,
um, anyway, on that rather heavy note, I think probably time is is up. Um, thank you so very much for your time, Father Will. I know you've told me to just call [00:32:00] you Will, but I will always look on you with, with respect and appreciation for everything you've done in the last six years.
Father_Will: Thank you, Jane. It's been a pleasure talking with you.
Jane Houng: Thanks again for listening to Mending Lives with me. Jane Houng. It was produced by Brian Hou. You can find relevant links to this show in the comments section. I would not, could not, be doing this without many people's support and encouragement. So until next time, [00:33:00] goodbye.
