Mending Lives

Jane_Houng: Hi, I'm Jane Hong, and this is Mending Lives, where I'm talking with people from a patchwork of places. Some have had their lives ripped apart by loss, some are in the business of repairing others brokenness, but we're all seeking to make this world more beautiful.

Welcome to the final episode in 2024 of Mending Lives, a podcast in which I chat with people about their lives. This was an attempt to mend my own after losing a daughter to rape and murder. Vanessa Chan was my first guest way back last February and here she is with me again doing a wrap up to end Series 1.

Together, we share memorable moments and personal favorites, touching on spirituality, Buddhist philosophy, resilience, [00:01:00] and reinvention.

Vanessa Chan: Hi, Jane.

Jane_Houng: Hi, Vanessa. Great to see you again.

Vanessa Chan: Yes. I love that we met in my yoga class and now we're sitting like a yogi.

Jane_Houng: Well you are, I'm not, but I find yoga very therapeutic still. And it's just amazing that we met through yoga.

Vanessa Chan: Yes, yes. So congratulations on finishing season 1, 24 episodes is it?

Jane_Houng: It is and it will take us to the end of the year, and yep, that's the end of Series 1.

Vanessa Chan: To prepare for this episode I have revisited all the episodes.

Jane_Houng: Thank you so much.

Vanessa Chan: And of course, throughout the year I've heard an episode here and there, but when you listen to the episodes as a whole, when you look at them holistically, there's some really clear trends that I would like to draw out in this episode.

Jane_Houng: Well, as this is a wrap up, I've been doing a little reflection too and looking back and a quick recap [00:02:00] for our listeners maybe. The main purpose was to, for me to talk to people with real life stories of how they cope with significant loss. And the idea was that I was very interested to know how they would mend their lives and actually I had a hunch that it would help me mend mine. And I would say that it's been a really positive experience. I mean, I've spoken to 24 people, you're right, 11 are writers. I suppose that's because I am a writer. And I've been talking to my friends. But I've also chatted with religious figures, lawyers, humanitarian workers, supporters of Becky's Button, of course, pop star, a poet , a retailer, and a psychologist. And from so many different countries. I think that reflects my travels linked to my charities. Of course, you in Hong Kong, but there's also been visitors from the UK, the USA, Lebanon, Pakistan, Nepal, India, and [00:03:00] Greece. And we've all been talking about heavy themes.

Vanessa Chan: Yes. And I want to talk about the duality of, you said it's heavy things, and I think a lot of audience your listeners will find this podcast to be quite heavy, but at the same time, when I revisited a lot of these episodes, the theme that I could draw from that is that it's actually in darkness, you find love, you find light. And there's this paradoxical nature of life where someone you trust may disappoint you, but then there will be a stranger that comes along to give you new hope and help you rebuild the trust.

Jane_Houng: It's bizarre, isn't it? I mean, in your greatest despair, you find hope. In darkness you find light. We read about that in the Bible. There's that famous poem by Rumi and the famous song by Leonard Cohen. And yeah I like to think that Mending Lives, it throws [00:04:00] darkness, but it ignites light. And why is that? It's been a curious journey. I remember on the second year after losing Becky, I put at the bottom of every email I wrote a famous Kylie Gibran quote, which is your joy is your sorrow unmasked. So what is it about these dichotomies? It's very deep. Let's keep it simple. Eastern religion has always talked about yin and yang , Dao De Jing is all about all these dichotomies being human constructions. Actually, it's not the universe. It's not the energy comes from somewhere else in a place of everlasting time and space.

Without darkness, we can't see light. Without white, we don't see black. It's weird. Let's put it in more moralistic point of view. You don't know good unless you know what evil is.

Vanessa Chan: [00:05:00] Yeah. And you mentioned just now that it has been a very healing process for yourself as well. I guess, as for many other folks who are in the healing business. A lot of times, we want to offer healing because we have been there ourselves. And actually by offering healing and by offering these opportunities for your friends to speak about the experiences, you are healing as well, Jane, right?

Jane_Houng: I think so. Well, I know so. And one curious thing about being a bereaved mother I've found is that people, in order to connect with me, will tell me their very worst experiences. Why do you think that is actually? Because I still wonder why it is.

Vanessa Chan: Yeah, I think human beings like to operate in the two ends of a spectrum, right? You either share something very joyful with someone you love or you share something really traumatic with someone you love and that shows trust. And that shows connectedness. And whether you like it or [00:06:00] not, it sounds horrible, but collective trauma actually is also a way for a community to form that closeness, isn't it?

Jane_Houng: There's something about, people can trust that I'm not going to crash and burn. They can tell me anything and I can just feel some empathy for it and there's some connection. You mentioned that word connection. Mending lives has provided that and I've been really surprised how people have opened up. I remember two episodes in particular where I hadn't expected that someone was going to tell me that. And then I remember the retailer in the UK and we were supposed to be talking about the joy of colour and how colour can brighten up one's lives. And it just slipped out that he'd be molested as a child. So I think we all suffer. It's very Buddhist way to think of it, but we all suffer significant loss or some difficult circumstances at some stages of lives. Yeah. [00:07:00] What it is, it doesn't really matter. It's more like, how do we get through it? Because we have choice. And I think Mending Lives and all the wonderful conversations I've had have shown me the resilience of people It's been very life enhancing for me.

Vanessa Chan: Yeah. And that's one of my observations as well, as I listen to the episodes again, is how strong we are. We bounce back. We can heal. And change is absolutely possible every day.

Jane_Houng: Well, I did look for people who have survived, let's say. People who say that they are survivors rather than victims. And one trend I notice about trauma there's no doubt about it that trauma wounds, we can become wounded. We can wear it like a badge. We can say we want to be healed.

Vanessa Chan: And get really attached to that badge.

Jane_Houng: Yes. you can wear it as a wound, an injury, something that you can't get through, you have to struggle terribly, or you can become [00:08:00] more wise as a result of that and learn how to weather the storms of life.

Vanessa Chan: During my meditation classes, I teach meditation. This topic comes up a lot and of course, just like why you went to my yoga class, a lot of times when I have new students, they're usually some kind of trigger and they would ask me to help them to process these negative experiences and they don't need to tell me what they are. And what often I do is I go into the visualization kind of meditation. I lead them through a journey, an inner journey basically, and help them look at the past negative experiences and ask them to think about what are the lessons that they have learned. And that way you are not discrediting. You are embracing the fact that it happened, but what you carry forward is the lesson, not the event itself, so that you don't replay the trauma. Because it needs to be transformed to another energy in your life in order for you to move on.

Jane_Houng: Yes. [00:09:00] About yoga and meditation. It's about focusing on the moment, isn't it? The present moment. And if we're really focusing on the present moment, we can't dwell on the past. We can't worry about the future. There's a great wisdom, I think, in just learning how to live in the present and to accept what has happened. But to know we do have choice. Of course, there are some things which are very traumatic. All right. And maybe, you need therapy, you need drugs, you need treatment, but for many kinds of traumas, I mean, just to try to live a healthier life, to be maybe closer to nature. to do some meditation, some yoga, some walking, look at flowers. this all can be very beneficial as a way to stop the sort of lion jumping out at you and shocking you about something that happened in the past or something you [00:10:00] fear very much about the future.

Vanessa Chan: Yeah. You just mentioned basically in order to change, you need to believe that change is possible. That's step one, right? Always. And in some of your episodes I noticed there are a couple of interviews about prisoners and also death sentences. And you as a mother, with your daughter being raped and killed by someone. I was really surprised by your positioning on that sentence and it seems that a couple of your interviewees who are lawyers and people who are involved with human rights also agree with you. Can you elaborate? Because I think it's a very important message and it's linked to what we just talked about.

Jane_Houng: Interesting, isn't it? That if you look at the stats, you can see that that was the two episodes that got the highest number of people listening. And people are thinking, what? Jane? This is what you think? Do you really believe that? Why? And look, let's keep it simple. I believe in the [00:11:00] sanctity of life. I believe no one has the right to snuff someone else's life. I do believe in human beings all having consciences. That's what distinguishes us from animals, right? I mean, a cat will, kill a bird because it's an instinct. We have instincts too. Those instincts have made us the dominant species on the planet. There's no question about that, that violence is required at a certain time. But in this more civilized society, especially in places where people get education, they have close family support, that if, okay, let's talk about the taxi driver. What a loss it would be to his family members, to his mother. I think of it from a mother's standpoint, I've lost a daughter she's lost a son, but there is a chance there for them to [00:12:00] reconnect, for him to apologize, for him to make up with his sister, all these things. We're all looking for redemption as human beings. We're looking to be saved from, whatever. we've done that we regret, let's say, and I believe that we do have a conscience and that is the way that society should be structured. So I've always felt strongly against the death penalty.

Vanessa Chan: And you mentioned the word redemption, which has been mentioned a few times with a couple of your guests who have been involved in the prison system around the world. And I think it's an understatement to say that the prison system can also be hugely improved. I was very surprised by the stat that Sister Gemma shared, which is that 51 percent of women who went to prison for the first time for a crime had had a prior psychotic intervention. And we are [00:13:00] using, basically, prison as a substitute for good mental health then that broke my heart.

Jane_Houng: Gemma is a magnificent human being who is a excellent example of how she has devoted her life to serving others less fortunate than herself. She has worked for decades in the maximum security prison in the UK. Now, that's that statistic comes from the UK. And what is psychosis? It's a severe mental condition, so severe that people lose their mind and do great harm to themselves or other people. I'm not surprised. I am, however, skeptical of this labelling. And I do believe that we are all born good, we want to do good. It's the stuff that happens to us, and a lot of really negative stuff that happens in our [00:14:00] childhood, then that can make people mad. It can really destroy that connection, that essential connection to the mind and the body and rationalism and all those good things. All I can say is I wish that the prison system was such that people who do have some psychological issue, They are some, that the system gives them a chance to reflect, to be treated.

Vanessa Chan: To heal.

Jane_Houng: To heal.

Vanessa Chan: And in your interview with Father Will, he mentioned his experience, he has been working with prisoners for decades, and he has seen some of the most remarkable transformation within the prison. This person may still be sitting in the prison and yet he can still transform.

Jane_Houng: I remember what Father Willis said, didn't he?

Vanessa Chan: It was very touching.

Jane_Houng: It was very, very touching, yes, how someone and he said that for some people had said, for, them, [00:15:00] prison was a bright place.

Vanessa Chan: Yes.

Jane_Houng: because there was light, there was hope.

Vanessa Chan: Because they don't need to fall back to the old structure. The setup of that lifestyle like gangsters or drugs or,

Jane_Houng: yep. They didn't have to be coerced into that. There was a chance for them to

Vanessa Chan: Live a different life.

Jane_Houng: Live a different life. And within the prison system, they were actually helping other prisoners see the light.

Vanessa Chan: Yeah. Another episode that really touched me was and again, go back to the earlier topic, we talked about duality, was Sonia's episode when she talked about how she would cut her wrist to stop that scream from inside. And yet obviously she trusted her ping pong coach, and that's why she got sexually assaulted by him. But as she escaped to Taiwan she started obviously meeting people she didn't previously know. And the kindness and love these [00:16:00] strangers have shown her were the reasons for her to rebuild the trust and just so many dualities in this story. What was your take? I also have met her personally because of you. Very, very touching story.

Jane_Houng: She's a very courageous woman.

Vanessa Chan: To come out to,

Jane_Houng: But do you remember what Ravi Shankar said about the South Asian culture is, if there's anything bad happened just Dig a beat hole.

Vanessa Chan: Suppress it, dig a,

Jane_Houng: Dig a deep hole he said.

Vanessa Chan: Put it in and forget it.

Jane_Houng: Yeah. . And she, I mean, basically she broke down, didn't she? She describes how she was in America and she was in her twenties, but it had happened a decade or so before she'd hidden it, and then it just came out and she broke down. She is a writer. She found the power of the pen. I think that was a very cathartic experience for her. And I think it was driven from her wanting to tell other young women about [00:17:00] their vulnerability and the danger. And that is a very magnanimous thing to do , it's a cost for herself because let's face it in Hong Kong, there's still a lot of stigma and she's basically a single woman, but she has spoken out and one can only hope that people will read it and talk about it. And she will lead a full interesting life and a very good model for many young women not to trust people easily.

Vanessa Chan: A lot of the interviews you talk to seemed to have this breaking point. The point when they just can't suppress the trauma, the traumatic experience anymore, and they completely surrender.

And while I'm sure it's not a good thing to do, It's extremely painful to get there. The journey to get there has to be so painful. But at the same time, you can sense that when they talk about it, there's this release. There's this, also this joy of finally surrendering [00:18:00] and trusting and that's almost like a small opening to awakening to exploring something beyond yourself and lose the ego and go out there and start experience life as it is.

Jane_Houng: I think it takes humility. I think that it's a very brave thing to do. I was aware with some guests that this wasn't so much of an issue. Because they were serving others and I think what I particularly enjoyed. Enjoy is not the right word, but what I personally found valuable is that not only Sonia at a personal level, okay, yes, she did, that's how she has become a model for other women, but it's the people who are serving others from the beginning. And I'm thinking of, yeah, good old Gemma Simmons, the Catholic nun, Father Will, Neville [00:19:00] Sarony, the champion of human rights. And I'm thinking also of the volunteers for my charities. I'd really like to give a shout out to them. As this is a wrap up I'm thinking of Stavros Mirogiannis, the manager of Becky's Bathhouse. I'm thinking of the wonderful volunteers I have at Rebecca Dykes Writers in the US. And then I have Yasmine Zahir who, yes, she was talking about the criminal justice system, but actually she's also offered to be Becky's Button legal advisor. And I have Mike Lindup, a male volunteer. A very famous pop star. And Dear Samira. Samira lives in Tripoli which is recognized as one of the most dangerous places to live in the world. She's a volunteer. And then actually a couple that of people you will hear about soon. One is Mansour Saliba, who is a young Lebanese student and [00:20:00] someone called Marija Todorova, who is doing a lot to give voice to marginalised people in Hong Kong. Now these people, they have empathy. They have a drive to make the world a better place. And personally, for me, going forward those are the kind of people I'd like to engage more with. I find them so inspiring. And I do believe that the major thing that I've learned about this is I can mend my own life, but actually to mend other people's lives is helping others. There is something very meaningful about that. And I do believe that from mending other people's lives, it gives you great meaning and purpose in life. And with that meaning and purpose, you can find joy. You can find these things we're looking for. [00:21:00] peace, happiness, and ideally some joy from time to time.

Vanessa Chan: There's another episode related to this that I really like. Is that Tim's episode. The NYU professor. Wow. I imagine he slipped it out more and more throughout the interview. I don't know if it was planned or not. And I don't know if you knew his story or not, but just the way he shared it so genuinely, as obviously someone quite well known and accomplished, I was quite humbled by that episode. For those who didn't listen to the episode Tim talks about his alcoholism in his thirties, and also what's interesting about that story is that a lot of times people think, you get into addiction, mental health issues because you made a big mistake, something big happened. But no, like he basically said that he was a writer and he got out of the habit of writing every day. And then he replaced that with, having a glass or two and slowly, it's all these like small [00:22:00] actions, seemingly small actions add up. And then he lost his saving from selling this house in New York city.

Jane_Houng: Extraordinary story. I mean, Look, what happened is, I was in Nepal for a writer's retreat, and I haven't been to a writer's retreat for years. But they were all friends, and they had been listening to Mending Lives. And there were a number of them that came up to me and said, Hey, I'd like to be interviewed for Mending Lives. The answer is, I didn't know in detail about what they were going to tell me. So I'm thinking of, yeah, Tim Tomlinson, Ravi Shankar, Tony Barnstone even Azra Rahim in America. I was in America shortly before I went to Nepal and I'm missing someone. Who was that? Ah, yes, Amy King. That was planned.

Vanessa Chan: I want to talk about that too.

Jane_Houng: But, but very quickly about those writers. Look, I think it's writers. We are humble people, alright? You can only write [00:23:00] certain books without an ego, and there's a lot of self reflection goes on.

Vanessa Chan: Yeah, I'm sure.

Jane_Houng: And to write something of meaning and substance, you've got to write about the real stuff.

Vanessa Chan: You have to go places internally to express certain humanity in your writing.

Jane_Houng: Internal challenges of being human. Look, I was surprised and yet I was delighted as well because they were so willing to talk and open up. And I hope that listeners who listened to it thought, yeah, okay, I've had one too many when I, in my twenties or whatever. But , I can get through it or I got through it it's humanizing, right. To see that we're all flawed individuals. And those people all got through what they had to.

Vanessa Chan: Yeah. there's also a flip side to that, right? I mean, he, his life has been transformed. He's now teaching, living in New York City again. And change is constant. Change can go either way in life. And, I think the lesson is [00:24:00] that you have to be careful with what kind of seed you're putting in the mud. Because change can happen so quickly, overnight as well. And as long as you have the right seed in there, then the right.

Jane_Houng: I love that analogy, isn't it?

Vanessa Chan: Yeah. Because that's what we learn in Buddhism, isn't it?

Jane_Houng: Yeah. we can't have flowers without the mud.

Vanessa Chan: Yeah.

Jane_Houng: Right. And yeah, we can't have trees without the root.

Vanessa Chan: But you have to want it.. You have to want that flower.

Jane_Houng: We have to want it. And then we actually have to suppress those seeds. The negative seed. And make them become weeds, the kind of weeds that wither and die rather than take over. So it's all to do with control of the mind. And I think that for many writers they are aware that that is the struggle of essentially being human.

Vanessa Chan: What about mental health and addiction it's hard to talk about, trauma without covering mental health and addictions as well. And ideally, we don't get there, but there are obviously a few of your, [00:25:00] guests who have been there. And, for both sides, like those who help addicts and also those who have been addicts. What were the key lessons you've learned from them?

Jane_Houng: Well, I'll answer that question and link to what you said before about change because life is all about change, is it not? And that about addictions, that, time of having a choice, do you have another snort of cocaine, or another tank of stout or whatever. You have an opportunity to make change for the better. And it's small but it's those small steps which actually can get you through. And the fact that we all can reinvent ourselves if we put our mind to it with focus and concentration, if we really want to, you've said that before, then there is an opportunity. And many of the people that I chatted with shared that kind of experience [00:26:00] of how it was that opportunity that was right there in the present moment. Oh, they weren't going to do it. Oh, whoops, that happened. But they had a choice. They didn't do the thing that would injure them more. It would be more healing what they would do.

Vanessa Chan: And there's so much power in picking up the meaning of a small incident, a small decision, isn't it? That a lot of times you imagine if you have been on a slippery slope. If you recover, there's this like big awakening moment, maybe like a gold light comes down from the sky. But it's not like that. Like from, what, how they have described it. It's not like that. It's very small moment. Do you understand the meaning? I forgot who it was, but he was playing with the kids and he was like that moment. He decided

Jane_Houng: That was Tim Tomlinson again yeah.

Vanessa Chan: Like he was, he decided that he would do things differently because of how he connected, he felt with the kids on the beach and just like that he decided that he was going to live differently. Life has lots of [00:27:00] moments where it would nudge you to do things differently, but you have to receive that message, you have to understand what it means.

You have to get insight, that's wisdom, that's awareness, isn't it? Self awareness.

Yeah, and I think when you want it, right? You are manifesting, you're looking, you're almost looking for that message. And so when it comes naturally, it would trigger a different decision, a different behavior because you're looking for it. Kind of what we learned about manifestation.

Jane_Houng: It hasn't been a golden light to me. I look on things as it's like a mountain, right? So you have to climb a mountain and sometimes you fall back a few steps.

Vanessa Chan: Of course. But but you know where you want to get to and you know what you want. And I think that's important.

Jane_Houng: Is there any episode that you particularly resonated with?

Vanessa Chan: I really love what Father Will said about how the prison can be light as well. this is really connected to, all the spirituality and Buddhism teaching, which is, you have a choice. The choice is actually yours to define [00:28:00] what this moment means. It's not the environment, it's not what you're with, it's not what you have, what you don't have, it's you. And so it seems that these prisoners who want to transform have decided that. prison is in fact the place they will transform. Prison is the place where they make the decisions to live differently. And that's very profound, isn't it? Because we, most of us imagine prison is probably one of the most horrible places on earth. And yet for them it's heaven. And I think that's profound.

Jane_Houng: That was very touching.

Vanessa Chan: Yeah. Very, very touching. Yeah. Another interview I would love for you to reflect on is your conversation with Ms. King. What's her name?

Jane_Houng: Oh A.S. King.

Vanessa Chan: I love that. I love that because there's obviously another, again, it's difficult to talk about trauma without talking about, a little bit about religion and spirituality and that came out quite clearly in a lot of your episodes even though it's not the main theme. It bits and pieces. I picked up [00:29:00] everywhere about spirituality how people have this opening after they surrendered and Especially in that episode, you and A. S. King talk quite extensively about in fact, it was the loss of your daughters both of your daughters that made you more connected to whatever you call it, an universe or the source. People have different religions, but it doesn't matter. It's basically your connection with the energy beyond yourself, beyond the bones and flesh, right?

Jane_Houng: She was talking about living in a bubble, wasn't she?

Vanessa Chan: Yes, yes. And writing is her safe bubble to explore.

Jane_Houng: She's one of the most energetic people I've ever met. She is a brilliant writer. And she ended reading a poem, right? And like, she never writes poetry. Or she's never to publish her poetry. And I think I had Rochelle Potkar the very well known Indian poet. I had Tony Barnstone, American poet. But Amy was reading poetry, too. The Power of Poetry. Look, that was a very [00:30:00] meaningful time. And in many ways, we didn't have to say very much about the loss. very early on after losing my own daughter, I thought, goodness, what about the parents who lose a child to suicide? So much worse.

Vanessa Chan: There's a lot of suicides out there now.

Jane_Houng: She's writing, She's taking care of her younger child, and she's recently launched a charity called Gracie's House in the name of her deceased daughter. And it's about providing summer camps for the homeless. trans people who are particularly what's the word stigmatized in Pennsylvania, which is where she lives. And she's driven to do that, and she's really making a difference. And it was an absolute delight to meet her again.

Vanessa Chan: It's almost like you lost your daughters, but then you found this unlimited fountain of love that you [00:31:00] are able to share with others, both of you.

Jane_Houng: Well, you have an option. But that's definitely something that Amy has chosen to do, and I think through the charitable works I do that's been a solution for me. And we talked a bit off camera too, but it's never been about, Oh, why me? It's like, why not me? As you said, right, there's so many young people committing suicide now. And so why not my daughter? There were 80, 000 women killed by a man in 2017, the year my daughter was killed. And look what's happening in Lebanon now, and what's happened in Gaza. There are people losing their children every day and not just a few people, hundreds, thousands, probably if you include war into it. So this is a tragedy. But it's something that unless we speak about it, it's not really noticed. And I can only hope that if Amy continues to speak out, if I continue to speak [00:32:00] out, and of course many other people who are doing something for greater humanity speak out too, then who knows, we might be able to make a small difference in the world.

Vanessa Chan: So as a meditation teacher, I get really excited when I see someone who is clearly opening up that door just a little bit to take a peek inside. And I don't mean they have any extraordinary experiences. Just the fact that they are willing to go inside and look at their heart and kind of see what kind of dirty laundry is in there is enough for me as a teacher to get really excited because I know when someone has started on the journey, has started on the path, it's pretty much, from what I can tell, most of the time, a point of no return. Because the alternative is so much more painful. And once they have had a moment, even just one second, two seconds of bliss, of that release,

Jane_Houng: They want more of it.

Vanessa Chan: They want more of [00:33:00] it. And spirituality is still somewhat taboo. Lots of people don't talk, are not comfortable in talking about it comfortably. Definitely not like you and I, but I really do smile when students come to my class and say, oh, I'm doing meditation because I'm stressed and that's all I want to accomplish. And of course, you. As someone who have been on this journey for a while, once you quiet down your mind, once you have a better control of your ego, you feel so much more and then that's the moment when your life begin. Can you share about your journey and what you've learned from your interviewees on this topic?

Jane_Houng: So you're talking about spirituality, and for me, spirituality is an individual quest. It's a quest to find meaning and purpose in your life, right? And unlike religion there's no firm set of beliefs. I went to arguably the most spiritual place on the planet. You might think [00:34:00] differently because you just come back from Bali. But I was in Nepal and I would like to share how I felt after talking with Yuyutsu Sharma, the poet because he had no great trauma. His mother died and because they were a very close knit family, and he loved his mother very much, he found it very, very hard. But through his deep spiritual belief, he turned his pen to poetry, climbed mountains. He was a shining light. And I remember asking him, or sharing with him really my experience of going to a group of students, there were about 300 of them, as part of the writing festival that I was attending, to talk to them. And I touched on trauma and mental health. And they look completely blank. These are young men and women who are very spiritual. And I [00:35:00] feel that there's something that is lost in many western advanced countries about that connection to what the real meaning of life is all about. That sounds terribly cliche. But they didn't have ego. When they sang their national anthem, they held their hearts and looked up at the mountain, and their anthem was all about the trees and the flowers and the beauty of the sky. There was such purity there. And for many, Professionals, there's all that stress related to work and, the terrible things that are happening in this world now, the real existential crisis we have regarding future job security and climate change and all those good things. But with this spiritual outlook that Yuyutsu had and the students that I met I see that it's not impossible for there to be a major shift in the world where people become more conscious of what's the real meaning, what's the purpose of life, and I'm probably talking too much. [00:36:00]

Vanessa Chan: No, never. Um, So thank you so much for sharing your conversations with your friends and people you think can help the world with us 24 episodes.

Jane_Houng: Thank you so much for your time and your enthusiasm and being so willing to do this wrap up session with me.

Vanessa Chan: Thank you.

Jane_Houng: Thank you.

Vanessa Chan: Thank you, Jane.

Jane_Houng: So that's it for 2024. I wish all my listeners peace and harmony for the festive season. As for series two, watch this space. And meanwhile, please don't hesitate to drop me a line with any comments or suggestions. Bye for [00:37:00] now.