Mending Lives

Jane_Houng: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Jane Houng, and this is Mending Lives, where I'm talking with people from a patchwork of places. Some have had their lives ripped apart by loss, some are in the business of repairing others’ brokenness, but we're all seeking to make this world more beautiful.

Marija Todorova is currently Research Assistant Professor in the Department of Translation at Hong Kong Baptist University. I first met her when she was working at the Department of English at Hong Kong Polytechnic University. That's because we collaborated on preparing teaching materials for one of my children's books.

Despite the recent death of my daughter, we hit it off immediately. Marija is a highly accomplished academic with two PhDs, 12 languages, and a range of academic degrees. She's conducted numerous research projects, co-authored books, and spoken at conferences. What's less well [00:01:00] known is that she is a Macedonian who lived through the Bosnian War, an experience which led her to helping the downtrodden and displaced, in her native country, and now in Hong Kong.

As a young woman, and before entering academia, she worked in several international charity organizations, such as UNDP, UNHCR, and DFID. She also participated in USAID projects for civil society development and support for refugee and displaced populations in Macedonia and Kosovo.

In terms of Mending Lives, Marija falls into the category of someone who is striving to make the world a better place. An educator, a translator, an interpreter for people who often, for no fault of their own, go unheard. I was particularly interested in a recent project called Untold Stories of Hong Kong, which showcases people whose voices are [00:02:00] underrepresented because of their gender, sexuality, race, or ethnicity.

The link to this podcast is in the show notes. So, if you'd like to understand more about the displacement, adaptability, role-playing, and shape shifting that non-Chinese people usually have to do here in Hong Kong, do have a listen after this.

Hi, Marija. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Marija Todorova: Hi. Thank you for inviting me. It's such a pleasure to talk to you again and be on your podcast.

Jane_Houng: Well, we've known each other for quite a few years and we've been catching up in the context of your life story really and I hadn't put two and two together [00:03:00] that you were in your 20s at the time of the Bosnian War.

Marija Todorova: Right yes. That was a long time ago, right, before I came here to Hong Kong. So, yes, I was born in what was then known as Yugoslavia, in Macedonia. But Macedonia back then was one of the republics that made Yugoslavia.

Jane_Houng: That's the area that's called North Macedonia now, right?

Marija Todorova: Right, exactly. Yes, that's the country known as North Macedonia at the moment. But I grew up as - I had an identity of belonging to, being Macedonian, but also a part of Yugoslavia. So when Bosnia happened it really changed or shaped me as a person in many ways.

Jane_Houng: I don't know how many of my listeners have met Macedonians. And I must confess I had to look on a map in preparation for this. And yeah, the old Yugoslavia comprised many modern countries.

Marija Todorova: [00:04:00] Right, so there were six republics - if I remember correctly now, it's been a long time - and two provinces. I think that's what they were called. So, now, it's North Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Slovenia, and then there's Kosovo, and there's Vojvodina as well which is now part of Serbia.

Jane_Houng: For this podcast, I've made it very clear that my purpose, my personal agenda, has been to try to mend my life as a result of the tragedy of which you know very well about. And if we have time, we can go back and explain to our listeners how you know that. But one thing I'd like to make clear to you is that I'm not looking for some like personal tragedy that happened to you as a result of living through those very difficult times 2000, 2001 in particular. How you by going to do your work in the refugee [00:05:00] camps, you found yourself helping people who were more disadvantaged than yourself. Can you talk about that a bit?

Marija Todorova: Okay, so as I said Bosnia really shaped me who I am. I wasn't directly, though, affected, you know, in my personal life by that war, it still felt a bit further away. But then there were other wars happening with the whole breakdown of ex Yugoslavia. So, the war came really closer to home when it was happening in Kosovo and Serbia and then eventually ended up, we also had a conflict in Macedonia as well. However, the fighting and the bombing started happening right at the border, then it really affected my daily life.

Jane_Houng: In what way?

Marija Todorova: Well, in what way? It's difficult to explain. First of all, you think differently about life. Everything becomes very scary. You don't know what will happen tomorrow. And then your [00:06:00] friends are directly affected. Their lives are being disrupted. They have family on the other side of the border. So they're afraid for their families. They're trying to bring their families to a safe place. And although I personally felt fairly safe at home, I could still feel the anxiety everywhere around me.

And listening to the news about what was happening, about thousands and thousands of people waiting at the border to cross the border to safety. Dying. And it was happening just one hour away from my home. So that kind of brought it really…

Jane_Houng: Home. Yes. That reminds me of when I was in Lebanon in July and in southern Lebanon, alas, people are losing their lives as a result of the Gaza war. But there we were in Beirut. Anyway, if you could share to our listeners, please, what led you [00:07:00] to start going to the refugee camps?

Marija Todorova: Right. So, I studied English language and literature. So English is my second language. But I studied English with an idea to be a literary translator, to translate books. Primarily children's books and fantasy books, because knowing English, I was able to experience these wonderful stories from other cultures. And then I wanted everyone in my country to be able to do so, especially children. So, my idea was to really translate books for kids into Macedonian and offer this vast number of stories from different cultures. But then, with life changing and wars happening around, what I ended up doing when I finished university was translating and interpreting for international organizations because there were a lot of international organizations.

Jane_Houng: Oh, who travelled to the region?

Marija Todorova: Yeah, being present in the region who [00:08:00] needed people with, you know, fairly good English to translate and interpret for them.

So that's where the jobs were and that's what I ended up doing. So, I worked for several international organizations, like the OSCE and a few others, however,

Jane_Houng: UN, wait a minute, many…

Marija Todorova: Yes.

Jane_Houng: UNDP. UNHCR.

Marija Todorova: Yes. But when the war started at the border, right next door, I thought, I should be doing something more. I should be helping because everyone around me was thinking about how can we help the people at the border, right? And the people who are most affected by the war, you can't just…

Jane_Houng: Ignore.

Marija Todorova: I guess you can, but it's difficult to just go and have your lunch and sit in an office and drink your coffee when there's something happening, like, you know, an hour or two hours away from you. So, thinking what I can do then it felt like, [00:09:00] I would be probably most useful with the skills I have at UNHCR. So, I joined UNHCR and they had a big presence in then Macedonia and they were running several refugee camps. I joined the team working directly at the border, in the refugee camp just at the border crossing between Kosovo and Macedonia.

Jane_Houng: And now here you are, how many years later, 25 years later, you move more into academia from what? The mid-2000s. And you are an eminent academic, a professor both in English as well as translation. But for me, it's interesting that it seems you are focusing more again on giving voice to marginalized people, disadvantaged people, refugees in Hong Kong. Is that a fair comment on the trajectory of your life?

Marija Todorova: Yes, it is. It is. Thank [00:10:00] you, Jane. As I said, working for you, UNHCR was again a very life-changing experience for me. You know, spending time in the refugee camp at the border, and just being present there and listening to people's stories that really…

Jane_Houng: Listening to people's stories.

Marija Todorova: Yes. Because when you are there, you actually see the people. If you sit at home and watch the news, it’s just numbers, right? They say so and so many people crossed the border today and I don't know how many people lost their lives on their way to safety, or all this kind of stories that generalize…

Jane_Houng: Yes.

Marija Todorova: And depersonalize, right? So, working at the border, in the refugee camp, and talking to the people opened my eyes to see that they're, you know…

Jane_Houng: These are just human beings.

Marija Todorova: Exactly.

And each one of [00:11:00] them has their own personal story.

And they're operating in a place, a situation that's out of their control in many ways.

Exactly,

Yeah. And, and their lives were affected, and for each one of them, that's, you know, that's the most important thing, right?

Jane_Houng: I suppose with your language skills, because I counted the number of languages you speak, is it 11? But you must have picked up so much.

Is that a fair comment? You know that you must have been super aware of what was happening and the different nationalities, the different classes, the different situations.

Marija Todorova: Yes, yes. And, and, you know, UNHCR operates in a way that they make sure they take down all the stories of each individual In order to then process and give them a proper legal status. Yes, there’s the asylum procedure and the refugee status, but also provide people with the necessary support, you know, in terms of [00:12:00] psychological support when they need it and so forth. So, in order to determine all these needs, they do…

Jane_Houng: They need people like you who can, yes?

Marija Todorova: Yes, yeah.

Jane_Houng: How amazing. So, let's fast forward a lot now to your work in Hong Kong, because I know that you support Becky's Button and Mending Lives through IG. Thank you so much for that. And when I reached out to you and said, ‘Hey, how about we have a chat?’ You said, ‘Yes, I'd like to’. And, I did some research and I found out that you've been very active with marginalized people and ethnic minorities in Hong Kong. Now, how did that come to be?

Marija Todorova: Thanks, Jane. Thank you. Yes, I'm also amazed by the work that you do. And I think it's really impacting lives. So, thank you for doing that. And that's why I wanted to, you know, I immediately said yes, although I'm a bit anxious.

Jane_Houng: I don't know why but go on.

Marija Todorova: Right. [00:13:00] So, as I said, the experience I had in my youth really affected me. So, instead of continuing everything after it finished and going back to being a literary translator, I decided to continue working on improving the lifes of refugees and asylum seekers and marginalized populations and any population that is experiencing crisis or emergencies. Because it felt like, as I said before, when we chatted, they don't really teach you at school because I got training to be a translator and interpreter, but they never teach you what to do in this kind of emergency crisis situations. So, it feels like I've learned on the spot by making mistakess and trying to improve on my own without any help. So, I decided to try and change that and try and bring to academia this situation and improve not just our [00:14:00] understanding of what happens, but also improve education for young translators and interpreters because you know maybe they don't find themselves in a situation of crisis. Maybe they end up being literary translators and that's wonderful. But what if something happens? So, I wanted them to be prepared.

Jane_Houng: So, you do a lot of research on this subject. You supervise doctoral students on this kind of subject. So, how translators can assist refugees or marginalized people who are suffering mental health problems. Can I be that specific or?

Marija Todorova: Yes, that as well, but all sorts of problems. And asylum seekers and refugees, all immigrants people nowadays they cross borders. They go to different countries where they don't speak the language, the local language. They might have knowledge of English, but it depends at what level and how good. So…

Jane_Houng: So, it's more [00:15:00] like identifying gaps.

Marija Todorova: The translators and interpreters are very often there, and they're kind of the first contact. Sometimes they belong to the same or very often I can say they belong to the same culture, you know, speaking the same language, right, they belong to the same culture of the asylum seeker. But then they're in a position to also help rather than just being a conduit, right? They become more of an advocate for these people, someone who can help, someone who can empathize, right?

Jane_Houng: Yes.

Marija Todorova: And that's why I understand the situation much better, and give maybe not I think it's a cliche to give voice, but not give voice, just amplify their voice. Or give them the tools to use their voice in order to improve their lives.

Jane_Houng: Improve their lives. Can we talk a little bit about the podcast you've done recently?

Marija Todorova: Yeah.

Jane_Houng: So, it was called…

Marija Todorova: That was a wonderful project that we did here at Hong Kong Baptist University, and I did it with a few other [00:16:00] colleagues within something that we call the Faculty niche research area, focusing on marginalized and minority population studies. Within that kind of formal university working group, let's say, we also created this informal collective, and it consists of several different colleagues from different disciplines. So, there's Daisy Tam, who's from the Department of Humanities and Creative Writing, there's Emily Chow Quesada who is from English Language and Literature, Evelyn Kwok from the Academy of Visual Arts, and then there's François Mouillot who's from again, Humanities and Creative Writing, but his work focuses more on popular music and marginalization. And, then there's me and Clara Chuan Yu, we are both from Translation Studies.

Jane_Houng: So, multidisciplinary.

Marija Todorova: Yes, [00:17:00] fairly multidisciplinary. This university is also putting a lot of attention to these multi or inter or transdisciplinary approaches because we believe that helps address problems, societal issues even better, you know, looking at the issue from different aspects and different sides.

Jane_Houng: So, let me share a layman's version of what's going on in Hong Kong. Hong Kong isn't a popular place to come to because there is basically no provisions for asylum seekers immigrants and also they can't work here. It's really difficult to get asylum. But there are still people who rock up here and try to make a life and some people stay, some people don't. So that's the refugees. And am I right in that there are a fair amount of Africans, maybe?

Marija Todorova: Yes.

Jane_Houng: Yes. So, the people that you worked with in this working group were Africans, were there [00:18:00] any others?

Marija Todorova: What we identified and it's 10 people that what we decided to be the number of episodes for the podcast and then the number of little comic books that we did as well. So, although it's just 10 people involved in this project, we tried to cover as much as possible that diversity of Hong Kong in terms of cultures and different types of marginalization in Hong Kong. Among the 10 people, there is a person from Africa, Dawit who is from the Africa Center, an NGO in Hong Kong that tries to improve the image of the African population from different African countries, who live in Hong Kong. And then there's Frederick Lau, for [00:19:00] example, who is a local Hong Kong person with a hearing disability. So, he presented life in Hong Kong from the perspective of a person who uses sign language and, you know, cannot really hear everything as well as the others.

Jane_Houng: How interesting. So, it's not just refugees. You're getting the untold stories, not just of refugees, but also people with difficulties who live in Hong Kong.

Marija Todorova: Yes. But, personally, as part of the project, I did three podcast episodes and all of them were focused on refugees.

Jane_Houng: Oh, okay. That's why it’s in Hong Kong.

Marija Todorova: Yes. So that was my part in this collective and in this project as I usually do work with asylum seekers and refugees and help their stories be heard. So, I spoke to Aimé Girimana, who is a refugee from Burundi here in Hong Kong. All three of the people I [00:20:00] interviewed have lived in Hong Kong for more than 10 years. So, it's a significant…

Jane_Houng: Period of time.

Marija Todorova: Aimé works at the Justice Center in Hong Kong. And he also has his own charity and does a lot of humanitarian work helping other asylum seekers. And then there's Joan Outsider. He's an asylum seeker. But beyond that, or above that, he's a poet, a writer, a filmmaker. And he…

Jane_Houng: I'm a friend of his. I mean, online.

Marija Todorova: Yes, yes, exactly. Share that.

Jane_Houng: Yep, commonality.

Marija Todorova: And then lastly, it's Nana, who's from the Middle East. Nana is obviously not her real name. Some of the refugees and asylum seekers, they decide to stay anonymous and use…

Jane_Houng: Yes, pseudonyms. Yes. For their own security, I imagine.

Marija Todorova: Exactly. And Nana is a single mother who is fleeing a difficult situation and trying to find safety…

Jane_Houng: [00:21:00] For herself and her children. And I see you brought a cookery book.

Marija Todorova: Yes.

Jane_Houng: What can you tell me about that?

Marija Todorova: One interesting aspect about the work of charities here in Hong Kong is the fact that a part of their work focuses on food, sharing food. On one hand, Hong Kong is, if I can say so, a food haven, right?

Jane_Houng: Yes, I think it's fair to say, and it's a very safe topic to talk about now, isn't it? Food!

Marija Todorova: And sharing, you would want to try food from different parts of the world, and putting food on the table and sharing food with friends and even with strangers is always something that brings us together, right?

Jane_Houng: Absolutely.

Marija Todorova: I think that's a wonderful way not only to try help refugees in a way, and asylum seekers, but also kind of overcome that barrier and [00:22:00] introduce their culture to the local population in Hong Kong from a different…

Jane_Houng: Foodie perspective.

Marija Todorova: In a different way. And on the other hand, it is, as you mentioned before, the situation of asylum seekers in Hong Kong is not…

Jane_Houng: Ideal.

Marija Todorova: Ideal. Yes, let's say that. And one of the aspects is getting food on the table because there are many limitations, right? They receive…

Jane_Houng: They get some coupons, don't they? How much is it a day? Do you know? Off the top of your head? It's…

Marija Todorova: 40 something dollars a day dollars. The Justice Center organizes every year a fundraising drive where they challenge people to live with this amount and see what they can buy and how they can get…

Jane_Houng: And with the inflation, we've had inflation in the last two years.

Marija Todorova: Nutrition with that amount of money. Right. It's not only that that's limiting, but also what you can buy. You can buy certain basic ingredients but not other ingredients. [00:23:00] And when you come from a different culture, your food is slightly different, and you need slightly…

Jane_Houng: Different ingredients.

Marija Todorova: And it's often the spices, right? Not only the ingredients that are imported and are consider kind of not local, right? But it's also the spices that give that specific taste to the food. So, this food projects are happening in a lot of different charities. They also provide the ingredients that the asylum seekers need.

Jane_Houng: And they're not necessarily expensive, it's just getting them to Hong Kong, isn't it? I mean, I know the ethnic minorities, like the Nepalese, the Indians, the Pakistanis, they don't have much of a problem because there are lots of people there, but if you're Burundian or Egyptian or what's up, you know it must be very difficult.

Marija Todorova: Well, it's also limited in terms of where you can buy your ingredients. With these coupons, you can only buy in certain stores, not in every store in Hong Kong. So that's also one of the limitations. Here we [00:24:00] are looking at a cookbook done by Run Hong Kong, one of the organizations, NGOs here in Hong Kong…

Jane_Houng: Called Run.

Marija Todorova: Yes, it's called Run because it primarily works with asylum-seeking women and provides mental health support, usually through hiking, running, and the outdoors.

Jane_Houng: Very therapeutic.

Marija Todorova: Yes, yes.

Jane_Houng: I think I've seen some of them on Lantau.

Marija Todorova: And then there's another charity called Grassroot Futures.

Jane_Houng: Oh, I've heard of them. Yes.

Marija Todorova: And they basically started as a project Table of Two Cities, which did exactly this: sharing on one hand, supporting asylum seeking, primarily women, you know, because women are usually the ones that bring the food…

Jane_Houng: On the table.

Marija Todorova: Yeah. So, it's usually helping women, although not all of them are women. But providing them with the ingredients to cook their national food so that they [00:25:00] get some for themselves, but they also share with the local population, they share their culture.

Jane_Houng: Lovely.

Marija Todorova: They can talk about the food they've prepared and what it means in their national culture.

Jane_Houng: Yes.

Marija Todorova: So, they teach others how to cook these national dishes, which also puts these women in a…

Jane_Houng: A more empowering position.

Marija Todorova: Exactly.

Jane_Houng: I can see by your face, you're suddenly full of life and energy and you're smiling a lot. So, there's something very heartwarming about this, isn't there?

Marija Todorova: Yeah, yeah.

Jane_Houng: Yes.

Marija Todorova: Definitely. And I think it gives the power back to these women.

Jane_Houng: It empowers, it gives them hope. Maybe there's going to be greater.

Marija Todorova: And there's something that they can share, something that they can contribute to society. Something…

Jane_Houng: Don't we all want to contribute to society ultimately? Yes. It's been fascinating to talk to you, Marija. We haven't talked anything about your academic life, but this [00:26:00] is more relevant to Mending Lives.

Marija Todorova: We usually talk about literature.

Jane_Houng: We do.

Marija Todorova: But also, about looking at society from a different perspective, right?

Jane_Houng: Yes.

Marija Todorova: Because I feel, you know, what drew me to your books was first of all, the girl who had a bit of a limp.

Jane_Houng: That's right. And then her daddy, who was an English man.

Marija Todorova: Yes.

Jane_Houng: Who came here to build the airport.

Marija Todorova: Yes.

Jane_Houng: Bought her a pony.

Marija Todorova: I love your stories, and there are unusual characters in them, I want to say, and characters who are not probably the first ones that come to mind. But I feel that through your stories, I see these other, maybe slightly forgotten parts of Hong Kong. I don't know whether you'll say the same thing, but that's my experience.

Jane_Houng: Thank you very much indeed for your interest and maybe one day I will go back to writing children's books again. My charities are keeping [00:27:00] me very busy at the moment and I don't quite know where it's going to lead. If you don't mind, I'd like to end with a personal question, and it is about your own daughter. So she's been educated here for how many years?

Marija Todorova: 13 years now.

Jane_Houng: 13 years. So, she must have a lot of Chinese friends. She must speak the local language. What are your aspirations for her?

Marija Todorova: Yeah, it's difficult to be a parent, isn't it? I find that really is the most difficult job I've ever had. Because you want the best for your child, but you also want to let them develop their own personality, right? And be their own person and find their own way.

Jane_Houng: She must be a fairly unusual teenager, because she's been brought up in Hong Kong.

Marija Todorova: Yes, she is. And it's kind of funny, she does speak and understands Macedonian and her English is better than mine. I think she feels like English is her kind of first language and she [00:28:00] probably is able to express herself best in English. And then maybe Macedonian is also our secret language. So I think that was the trick of keeping it alive is that whenever she wants to tell me something in public and no one…

Jane_Houng: Doesn't want anyone to understand.

Marija Todorova: Yeah, she uses Macedonian. Although I can't really tell how fluent she is in Chinese, Cantonese, they learn a lot at school and yeah, she basically grew up here. She went to a local kindergarten, which was only in Cantonese. Basically, Cantonese was her first foreign language before English. So, I want to think that she's also a…

Jane_Houng: Future citizen of the world.

Marija Todorova: Yes. She's very aware, I would say, a lot more mature than I was at her age. And I think children here in Hong Kong are. Maybe it's this time and age that we are living in.

Jane_Houng: Internet plus a multicultural society. Well, it certainly [00:29:00] used to be. It's less so now. But well, thank you very much indeed again. I wish you all the best for this term and when we next meet, let's talk about books. Children's books.

Marija Todorova: Yes.

Jane_Houng: Thank you so much.

Marija Todorova: Thanks.

Thanks again for listening to Mending Lives with me, Jane Houng. It was produced by Brian Hou. You can find relevant links to this show in the comments section. I would not, could not be doing this without many people's support and encouragement. So, until next time, goodbye.